Existence of God

Felix wrote:

Death no more wrote:

Felix wrote:

Death no more wrote:

Felix wrote:

Death no more wrote:

Felix wrote:religion is wrong in many ways, but it's cool to believe in it as it give people something to do

It is also right in many ways but isnt science to?, both have flaws, everything has flaws(except god)

so, god, who has no flaws, make humans who are in his image, have flaws, but not him?

*head explodes*

He didn't give us flaws at first, Eve ate from the the tree of knowledge and that gave us our flaws, in the very beginning it is our fault for our flaws No way we can blame god.

But, every man and woman are made in God's image...

So, he just decided to let everyone keep the flaws? and I can blame god, because he should have kept a fence around the tree...

lol you could say that but think of it this way. If you have a outdoor cat do you fence it off from the road, no you trust the kitty to be smart, but it crosses the road because it can and maybe theirs a little temptation involved(The devil).and jumps a tree and eats from the tree of knowledge and gives us originals sin(ROLF)

GTG bye for now.

WTF? No, I wouldn't trust the cat, as I haven't taught it not to cross the road yet... same with a child. You can't expect them to know this kind of stuff. Adam and Eve were children(in a metaphoric way) and even though god said "don't go here", he didn't explain why. Same why a child will touch a stove. Even when you tell him not to, he still will until he figures out why he can't touch it...

so, the devil made the kid touch the stove?

Metaphorically speaking the devil tempted the kid to touch the stove and find out what happens. Curiosity killed the cat, wouldn't you eat from the tree knowledge if you where tempted and where curios about what would happen?

x Gauz x wrote:I have another thing to mention...

God has proven himself to be th most violent being to have ever existed. While the holocaust killed 6 million people, god killed every living breathing human on earth during the great flood. Not only but also, he killed the firstborns of all families in Egypt, and other stories of sick, twisted, violent acts.

Why?
Another question, why would anyone follow this madman? Kill everyone on earth? It would seem gods devine plan doesn't have the best intention of humanity.

And, why would god let all thoose people die in the holocaust? Hmmmm? This is the epitimey of violence.

God gave us free will and a choice to choose to hate,kill, and destroy or to love,save, and rebuild. Its Hitler's fault for the holocaust, not god's. As for the flood they where corrupt, they didn't deserve to live, only Noah and some of his family was able to live. The families of Egypt had tortured, enslaved, and killed gods people, as far as im concerned they deserved to die.

x Gauz x wrote:

EDIT: Seath, its not that I don't like religion, christianity, god. Its that, I want answers, to a lot of questions. I would <3 god so much if he was what everyone makes him out to be. But such is not the case, and it saddens me. I am not happy with myself either, as I disembowled christianity..

Its okay Gauz, just let a priest answer those questions, they know would far more than I would on this subject. Yes gauz you disemboweled Christianity, while I had to put back in the organs and seal the wound with duck tape

The lesson behind the story of Adam and Eve is the same basic thing as 'curiosity killed the cat'.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:The lesson behind the story of Adam and Eve is the same basic thing as 'curiosity killed the cat'.

So, the devil is behind it all?

Felix wrote:

Kasrkin Seath wrote:The lesson behind the story of Adam and Eve is the same basic thing as 'curiosity killed the cat'.

So, the devil is behind it all?

Yes with out the devils temptation, eve may have never eaten from the tree of knowledge.

i just like to add to this because i seen a lot of people saying this. eg: "if there was a god there would no suffering" well what we believe is that God made everything, and one day God created humans, when god created humans he told all his angels to bow to the humans, and all the angels bowed except from one, that angel was Lucifer. i cant really tell you in detail what happened, but long story short. Lucifer said he wouldn't bow because they were considered inferior to him, God was outraged that Lucifer didn't follow his command, and so God banished Lucifer to hell, Lucifer(now the devil) said the humans were stupid and weak minded so he said to God that he could turn more people away from God, than the number of people who believed in God, God wanted to prove a point to the devil and he gave humans the power of free will so he could show Lucifer/devil that humans believe in him without god making them believe

if you read all that and understood it that is why there is suffering in the world, because of free will.

I don't know if that's exactly how it happened, but yes, that is generally the idea. Evil and suffering are the absence of God, and free will is the method that humans use to remove God from themselves.

R!zZle BiZzl£ wrote:God wanted to prove a point to the devil and he gave humans the power of free will so he could show Lucifer/devil that humans believe in him without god making them believe

Lulz - so basically, the devil was right?

Hmmm....

"No, you're wrong!"
"NUH UH YOU ARE!"
"No you are.."
"How about this: We give them a choice and see what happens!"
"You're on!"

Sounds like an argument to see who is right and we are just a bunch of pawns forced into it.

Cheese wrote:Lulz - so basically, the devil was right?

Sounds like it. So the Devil was right, and god was wrong.

I'd say the Devil is the perfect one!

Hmmmm...

In the bible, doesn't it say that god planned out everything that happens to everyone on earth?

x Gauz x wrote:Hmmmm...

In the bible, doesn't it say that god planned out everything that happens to everyone on earth?

No, the heretics of predestination followed that, I really dont think it says that in the bible.

Death no more wrote:

x Gauz x wrote:Hmmmm...

In the bible, doesn't it say that god planned out everything that happens to everyone on earth?

No, the heretics of predestination followed that, I really dont think it says that in the bible.

Stop calling everyone heretics please... Just because someone has a different belief system to yours doesn't mean it's heresy (which were ironically, usually murdered for their beliefs). In fact, the whole silence heretic thing kind of treads on free speech.

Rotaretilbo wrote:I don't know if that's exactly how it happened, but yes, that is generally the idea. Evil and suffering are the absence of God, and free will is the method that humans use to remove God from themselves.

Humans have free will. I have the free will to believe in the Buddha or believe in God.

Free will is amazing. It is what truly makes a human a human.

Evil and suffering are caused by those who misuse free will.

Hilter had free will. Ghanda had free will. But the free will was gradually limited by goals and personality. Free will is good and bad.

Had Ghanda never had free will, he would have never ventured to bring independence to India.

Ghanda was a Hindu. God was not there. But Ghanda accomplished more than MLKJ and Nealson Mandela put together.


Hitler on the other hand was a Catholic.So I guess God was with him.

"... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power,

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. He quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Hitler killed 12 million people. Massacred 6 million Jews. All the while he thought he was God's "agent".


Free will is both good and bad. God has nothing to do with it.

ReconToaster wrote:

CivBase wrote:hmmm... so we have shown that the belief God is logical?

Whether or not something is "logical" is subjective, so I'm not gonna get into that. My argument was that, no matter how logical/illogical the idea in itself is, it is not a reasonable conclusion to make, given the knowledge we currently posses. There are plenty of other possibilities. While the existence of god may not be an illogical premise, the definitive belief in one is just silly.

Being as it's the only logical conclusion that's available, why isn't it logical to come to such a conclusion?

well, it seems that no matter what we do, we will never know, until the time comes.

If god(should he be up there) can't accept me for being me, then why should I bother to believe in him?

as long as you do good, and be a good person, it shouldn't matter what you believe now should it?

EDIT: After relizing my first point was a little...odd, I should try and make it a little clearier. What I mean is, if he can't accept the things that make me me, or the things that make other people them, then why should I believe in him?

Civ wrote:Being as it's the only logical conclusion that's available, why isn't it logical to come to such a conclusion?

I don't think it's any more of a logical idea than many other theories out there. I don't think it's "the only logical" theory.

There really is no such thing as a "logical conclusion" when it comes to the 'creation' of the cosmos.

ReconToaster wrote:

Civ wrote:Being as it's the only logical conclusion that's available, why isn't it logical to come to such a conclusion?

I don't think it's any more of a logical idea than many other theories out there. I don't think it's "the only logical" theory.

There really is no such thing as a "logical conclusion" when it comes to the 'creation' of the cosmos.

Scientology is the answer!!!!

LOL!

Cheese wrote:

Death no more wrote:

x Gauz x wrote:Hmmmm...

In the bible, doesn't it say that god planned out everything that happens to everyone on earth?

No, the heretics of predestination followed that, I really dont think it says that in the bible.

Stop calling everyone heretics please... Just because someone has a different belief system to yours doesn't mean it's heresy (which were ironically, usually murdered for their beliefs). In fact, the whole silence heretic thing kind of treads on free speech.

lol awwwwwww dang it, its very fun though

Zaki90 wrote:
Hitler on the other hand was a Catholic.So I guess God was with him.

"... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power,

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. He quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Hitler killed 12 million people. Massacred 6 million Jews. All the while he thought he was God's "agent".


Free will is both good and bad. God has nothing to do with it.

Except for the fact that he GAVE it to us. Hitler was a misguided fool that twisted the word of our lord to gain power, I truly doubt he was working with god or for god, he just used god as leverage.

Death no more wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:
Hitler on the other hand was a Catholic.So I guess God was with him.

"... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power,

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. He quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Hitler killed 12 million people. Massacred 6 million Jews. All the while he thought he was God's "agent".


Free will is both good and bad. God has nothing to do with it.

Except for the fact that he GAVE it to us. Hitler was a misguided fool that twisted the word of our lord to gain power, I truly doubt he was working with god or for god, he just used god as leverage.

I agree. But God has no control over our free will.

The point Rot made was that evil and suffering are caused by the absence of God. When Hitler believed in God and thought himself an agent of God, still was evil and took the lives of 12 million people.

Misguidance is the true cause of suffering and evil.

1. Hitler hated religion.

2. In gods 'devine plan' he creates all our lives, meaning Hitler had no choice, it was gods 'will'.

3. I don't feel like debating this on easter anymore..

If god knew what was going to happen, why would he say Humans would choose god if given free will?

Yeah, I agree though, lets not argue anymore today

x Gauz x wrote:

1. Hitler hated religion.

2. In gods 'devine plan' he creates all our lives, meaning Hitler had no choice, it was gods 'will'.

3. I don't feel like debating this on easter anymore..

1. Why would he say he was God's agent by killing Jews if he hated his religion in believing in God.

2. So Hitler was really one of God's agents? Are you saying Hitler is not be blamed rather God? Why would God make someone kill 12 million people?

3. Fine...

x Gauz x wrote:1. Hitler hated religion.

2. In gods 'devine plan' he creates all our lives, meaning Hitler had no choice, it was gods 'will'.

3. I don't feel like debating this on easter anymore..

.... guilty are you not gauz?
As I said before that is predestination, god gave us free will so he doesn't predetermine our lives. We have a choice to do whats right or whats wrong, it was hitlers choice not gods.
Also think of catastrophes this way *looks for quote in bible, cant find it but remembers part/most of it* Isaiah one of the many people of his time, thought that god used catastrophes as punishment. God made him see different, all kinds of catastrophes happened around Isaiah, after all the disasters happened, Isaiah heard the voice of god and realized that god isnt with the disasters but the calm and peacefulness that follows them, he comforts the living and helps the afflicted through one us or another tool(hope, love, kindness)Sorry if its not totally accurate but thats the basis idea.