Existence of God

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Post by TNine on Sun Apr 05, 2009 3:00 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Tnine wrote:God created time, and God existed before time. Before time, there was no order of events, and nothing happened. If something created God, what created that? For that matter, what created the singularity that started the universe? If something was there when time first started, he was there from the beginning. If he created time, he was there before the beginning, and therefore always there.

Ok....

I'm not dismissing that "God" could have always been, I'm just saying that you can't say "Antimatter can't have always been" and then turn around and say god has always been around.

It's an argument that I've heard far too many times, and it gets old.

"The two particles that started the big bang can't have always been... so god must have always been!"

It doesn't make any sense.
Anti-matter exists within times boundaries, meaning it couldn't have existed without time.

Edit: Also, i'm not saying that the two singularities couldn't (wait, there's two now?) have existed before time, i'm saying it's the same concept as God. If you create time, nothing can create you.
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Post by Gauz on Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:45 pm

Except energy...
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Post by Felix on Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:08 pm

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Post by Toaster on Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:15 pm

Tnine wrote:Anti-matter exists within times boundaries, meaning it couldn't have existed without time.

Edit: Also, i'm not saying that the two singularities couldn't (wait, there's two now?) have existed before time, i'm saying it's the same concept as God. If you create time, nothing can create you.

SO why can't time have lasted forever?
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Post by Cheese on Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:38 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Tnine wrote:Anti-matter exists within times boundaries, meaning it couldn't have existed without time.

Edit: Also, i'm not saying that the two singularities couldn't (wait, there's two now?) have existed before time, i'm saying it's the same concept as God. If you create time, nothing can create you.

SO why can't time have lasted forever?

It's the question nobody seems to want to answer... (read: is ignoring)

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Post by Death no More on Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:48 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Death no more wrote:There has to be a god, it wouldn't make sense without one. The big bang theory doesn't explain all the way on how we were made, for all of you that say it is true, explain how matter and anti matter first came to be in this universe?

If you're going to say that anti-matter, or something along those lines, can't have always existed, you can't just turn around and say "God" could have always existed. I really don't see why so many see that as a valid argument... and a lot of fucking people do.

You're right. Science, as of yet, cannot explain deep human emotion. Just ask Dud... he'll tell you way more than you will ever have wanted to know. We, as a race, know very little about a lot of things. Lack of external explanation does not justify blind assumption.
If you read on in my post, you will notice that I say "then must not make sense either then" Did you just skip a part or somthin?
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Post by CivBase on Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:08 pm

Cheese wrote:But whyyyyyy??????

Everyone seems to agree that the big bang/big crunch occur over and over again. Everyone knows (by which I mean, I think/hope is true Razz) that energy (or maybe it's matter...) cannot be created or destroyed. Why can't it always have been there?

As you can see, my logic is flawwless Shocked
Personally, I don't think the big bang is very convincing... I'm not going to fight it, but it still sounds as educated as "we all evolved from rocks" to me. Not something I'd want in science...

And why? Because it is a rule of science. Everything must have a beginning, it must have come from SOMEWHERE. Otherwise, we would have to admit that energy/matter is, in some sense, supernatural.

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Post by Felix on Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:16 pm

CivBase wrote:
Cheese wrote:But whyyyyyy??????

Everyone seems to agree that the big bang/big crunch occur over and over again. Everyone knows (by which I mean, I think/hope is true Razz) that energy (or maybe it's matter...) cannot be created or destroyed. Why can't it always have been there?

As you can see, my logic is flawwless Shocked
Personally, I don't think the big bang is very convincing... I'm not going to fight it, but it still sounds as educated as "we all evolved from rocks" to me. Not something I'd want in science...

And why? Because it is a rule of science. Everything must have a beginning, it must have come from SOMEWHERE. Otherwise, we would have to admit that energy/matter is, in some sense, supernatural.

Is it more convincing that God spawned two people(Adam and Eve) had a few sons, and we came from that?

Like God came from somewhere. he created himself, yet he was always there? I don't seem to get it...
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Post by CivBase on Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:19 pm

No, but do you take God to be science?

Like I said, I'm not going to fight this.

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Post by Felix on Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:22 pm

CivBase wrote:No, but do you take God to be science?

Like I said, I'm not going to fight this.

I really don't know what to believe...

why not? it's just a fight over the internet, means nothing.
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Post by CivBase on Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:33 pm

Felix wrote:
CivBase wrote:No, but do you take God to be science?

Like I said, I'm not going to fight this.

I really don't know what to believe...

why not? it's just a fight over the internet, means nothing.
Because this isn't going to go any further than God being real, and I would accomplish nothing on the offensive.

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Post by Cheese on Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:11 pm

Surely in science, nothing has a beginning. If we trace everything back it becomes conversion. Nothing was created that we have seen, only manipulated or changed.

So yeah, I'm not buying into science saying stuff has to have a beginning. As for the big bang/ crunch, i used it more as a demonstration of a pattern that may never end.

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Post by CivBase on Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:25 pm

Something about time being linear...

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Post by Gauz on Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:52 pm

Then what about dinosaurs? I guess god put them there just to trick us, eh?
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Post by CivBase on Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:57 pm

Gauz, did you know that lizards never stop growing?

Think about it. Genesis. If nothing died before Adam sinned... and we don't know how long that took, these lizards could have gotten PRETTY BIG!

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Post by Gauz on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:09 pm

So, Adam lived with.... dinosaurs?
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Post by Cheese on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:09 pm

CivBase wrote:Something about time being linear...

Time could still be linear. Just the events that repeat. Or even they don't repeat at all.

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Post by Death no More on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:30 pm

x Gauz x wrote:So, Adam lived with.... dinosaurs?
Not dinosaurs in the way we think of but lizards that were overgrown and eventually evolved into dinosaurs while Adam watched them eat everything except him(so yes he did live with dinosaurs...lol)
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Post by Toaster on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:36 pm

CivBase wrote:Gauz, did you know that lizards never stop growing?

Think about it. Genesis. If nothing died before Adam sinned... and we don't know how long that took, these lizards could have gotten PRETTY BIG!

Except cold blooded creatures cannot possibly survive at such mass. Their bodies cannot be kept warm, and they cannot move that fast, or live in colder regions. Dinosaurs were likely warm blooded. A different species entirely.

Civ wrote:And why? Because it is a rule of science.

It's not a religion Civ. We don't all subscribe to everything that comes out of a self proclaimed "Scientist's" mouth. Either way, as I have explained, laws like that are meant to govern our Einsteinian Universe, and the dimension in which we reside, not necessarily the whole of the Cosmos.
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Post by Death no More on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:47 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
CivBase wrote:Gauz, did you know that lizards never stop growing?Think about it. Genesis. If nothing died before Adam sinned... and we don't know how long that took, these lizards could have gotten PRETTY BIG!

Except cold blooded creatures cannot possibly survive at such mass. Their bodies cannot be kept warm, and they cannot move that fast, or live in colder regions. Dinosaurs were likely warm blooded. A different species entirely.

Civ wrote:And why? Because it is a rule of science.

It's not a religion Civ. We don't all subscribe to everything that comes out of a self proclaimed "Scientist's" mouth. Either way, as I have explained, laws like that are meant to govern our Einsteinian Universe, and the dimension in which we reside, not necessarily the whole of the Cosmos.
You never know lizards could have been warm blooded then evolved into a cold blooded creature to suit to mesozoic heat and haven't evolved back. They started to get smaller (some of them) and they survived and then repopulated the lizards(Adam by the grace of god survived the mass extinction)

ReconToaster wrote:It's not a religion Civ. We don't all subscribe to everything that comes out of a self proclaimed "Scientist's" mouth.
Are you making fun of my religion :suspect:
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Post by CivBase on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:55 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Civ wrote:And why? Because it is a rule of science.
It's not a religion Civ. We don't all subscribe to everything that comes out of a self proclaimed "Scientist's" mouth. Either way, as I have explained, laws like that are meant to govern our Einsteinian Universe, and the dimension in which we reside, not necessarily the whole of the Cosmos.
Owch. Someone's a little cold; especially when I didn't even accuse science of anything wrong. Everything must have a starting point.

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Post by Cheese on Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:59 pm

CivBase wrote:Everything must have a starting point.

Garg... people keep saying this! It's possible, perhaps even probable that nothing has a start! And if everything must have a start then why not God? And why can't matter be supernatural if God can be?

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Post by Death no More on Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:02 pm

Cheese wrote:
CivBase wrote:Everything must have a starting point.

Garg... people keep saying this! It's possible, perhaps even probable that nothing has a start! And if everything must have a start then why not God? And why can't matter be supernatural if God can be?
It cant be because if matter was supernatural, I would be supernatural and therefore be god which I brought in my previous point about all of us being one ethereal being just living all in different views.
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Post by Toaster on Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:19 pm

Death wrote:It cant be because if matter was supernatural, I would be supernatural and therefore be god

No. "God" is not defined simply as being in existence forever. A god is a being who intentionally manifested the Cosmos.

Civ wrote:Owch. Someone's a little cold; especially when I didn't even accuse science of anything wrong. Everything must have a starting point.

You quote science as if it were scripture. That's what upsets me. That, and you spell "Ouch" wrong.

Death wrote:You never know lizards could have been warm blooded then evolved into a cold blooded creature to suit to mesozoic heat and haven't evolved back. They started to get smaller (some of them) and they survived and then repopulated the lizards

So they started as warm blooded, grew forever, and then they started dying at an early age, and so were never able to get so large, and so became cold blooded, and are still as such today?

I get it. Sorta like how we have external testicles because we needed bigger ones to compete sexually, and our body heat was too hot to sustain them, so they grew outside of us, and now they are small enough to survive at natural body heat, yet they still remain outside?

Oh wait, no, it's nothing like that.

Basically you're both saying that, if let live forever, lizards would grow to the size of dinosaurs? Creatures don't simply continue growing as long as they live. Human males stop growing at age 21. If left alone for an eternity, we still wouldn't continue growing.

Your though process is so archaic. Dinosaurs are just really really old chameleons?
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Post by Death no More on Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:26 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Death wrote:It cant be because if matter was supernatural, I would be supernatural and therefore be god

No. "God" is not defined simply as being in existence forever. A god is a being who intentionally manifested the Cosmos.

Civ wrote:Owch. Someone's a little cold; especially when I didn't even accuse science of anything wrong. Everything must have a starting point.

You quote science as if it were scripture. That's what upsets me. That, and you spell "Ouch" wrong.

Death wrote:You never know lizards could have been warm blooded then evolved into a cold blooded creature to suit to mesozoic heat and haven't evolved back. They started to get smaller (some of them) and they survived and then repopulated the lizards

So they started as warm blooded, grew forever, and then they started dying at an early age, and so were never able to get so large, and so became cold blooded, and are still as such today?

I get it. Sorta like how we have external testicles because we needed bigger ones to compete sexually, and our body heat was too hot to sustain them, so they grew outside of us, and now they are small enough to survive at natural body heat, yet they still remain outside?

Oh wait, no, it's nothing like that.

Basically you're both saying that, if let live forever, lizards would grow to the size of dinosaurs? Creatures don't simply continue growing as long as they live. Human males stop growing at age 21. If left alone for an eternity, we still wouldn't continue growing.

Your though process is so archaic. Dinosaurs are just really really old chameleons?
argh I hate when im brutally proved wrong anyways those are humans whats to say lizards cant keep growing(if you say science ill murder you) Also they stopped growing because Adam sinned so they would die before they reached true size, I hate this thread now... and calm the fuck down, Jesus its debate over the internet -.-
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