Halo: Reach

BBJynne wrote:And the next thing you know, we're the U.S. mail.

wut?

Tnine... do you even know what a low pressure/ high pressure system is?



its BECAUSE it takes the air longer to go over the wing than under that creates lift... THAT IS WHAT LIFT IS


there is more air flowing under the wing than over in the same period of time... thats why the plane flies



we know EXACTLY how an airplane creates lift and flies.... maybe YOU don't... but humanity has basically nailed that one on the head.

we have also nailed fluid and light dynamics... which say that light wouldn't pass smoothly through the material.... and to prove the fact that it isn't passing smoothly through... YOU CAN SEE THE SCRATCH... the fact that you can SEE it means that the light is not passing through it evenly...

TNine wrote:wut?

It's the inevitable conclusion to any steady decline.

from cast away, as stated by a fed-ex employee

KrAzY wrote:Tnine... do you even know what a low pressure/ high pressure system is?



its BECAUSE it takes the air longer to go over the wing than under that creates lift... THAT IS WHAT LIFT IS


there is more air flowing under the wing than over in the same period of time... thats why the plane flies



we know EXACTLY how an airplane creates lift and flies.... maybe YOU don't... but humanity has basically nailed that one on the head.

No. You are incorrect. Bernoulli's principle of lift has been disproven numerous times in wind tunnel tests. It is totally correct in math, but completely incorrect in science.
Here is the best link i could find.

We still do not understand how planes fly, Newton's method of lift is mathmatically incorrect and Bernoulli's is scientifically incorrect. (Edit: This itself may be incorrect, nonetheless, we still don't fully understand why planes fly.

BTW: Bernoulli's principle states that when a plane cuts through the air, the air going above the wing must go faster to reach the end of the wing at the same time, and as such is less pressure.

we have also nailed fluid and light dynamics... which say that light wouldn't pass smoothly through the material

See: Air. Light passes fairly smoothly through that, as it doesn't difract as quickly as glass does.

.... and to prove the fact that it isn't passing smoothly through... YOU CAN SEE THE SCRATCH... the fact that you can SEE it means that the light is not passing through it evenly...

I know. I actually pointed this out much earlier in the thread, before either you or Rot.

TNine wrote:I'm very poor at explaining things, i apologize. What i meant was that when he scratched, the top layer is totally removed by that scratch, meaning little to no loss of visibility. Since the area where the substance is removed is still quite small, it would still look like a scratch. If you have a lot of these scratches, you still wouldn't get a flat peel. Maybe i'm just seeing it wrong tho

But you would still have the sides of the scratch which would obscure vision heavily, in this case.

TNine wrote:The point i was trying to make is what would happen if we found a way to make glass/a new material that would not refract as much as glass does right now, so that a scratch made would be less opaque and more a distortion. As i said before, i don't know much about light physics, but i'm fairly certain from what you've told me that if we found this material, it wouldn't scratch as obviously.

And if we found this magically invisible material, scratching would also not produce a skull on the other side, as the scratches would be, wait for it, less opaque and more a distortion! Not to mention that this invisible material wouldn't be able to polarize properly like the visors do.

TNine wrote:I'm saying that the air molecules that take the longer path don't speed up to reach the end of the wing at the same time as the air molecules that take the shorter path. The longer path molecules just arrive at the tail of the wing later.

So no, we don't know why planes creat lift.

Which is not entirely true. While the molecules do not speed up to catch up with their brethren below, they still travel faster, which creates a low pressure system (my mistake before, the high pressure is under the wing), causing lift. We know why planes create lift. The shape of the wing forces the air molecules to become slightly denser (as it forces those on a straight path up into the molecules above it), which results in the molecules traveling faster above the wing than below it, creating lift.

TNine wrote:Totally transparent is poor wording. I meant far more transparent and non-distorting than glass. So yes, air can distort light, but it doesn't do so as quickly as glass does. If we had a material that distorted light less quickly than glass does, would it not cause less visible scratching and cracking.

But air is less transparent because it has no solid form. Objects with solid forms would have to be invisible to refract light in the same manner that a gas does. Because air is not solid, light can pass through it unhindered by just pushing aside the gaseous molecules. Light cannot do this with a solid.

TNine wrote:Overall, i think Bungie is doing what's in Bungie's best interest. If they can attract a bunch of little kids to buy this game at the price of a rather small part of the story, which alone is hardly canon-breaking (i still don't think anyone, no matter how much of a canon-hugger, is going to avoid this game because of an unrealistic skull). If they are doing a bunch of this it, than this is bad, but if it's the only real problem, than it should be fine.

If we ignore the fact that it is supposed to be illegal for these little kids to play a Mature game...

Rotaretilbo wrote:

TNine wrote:I'm very poor at explaining things, i apologize. What i meant was that when he scratched, the top layer is totally removed by that scratch, meaning little to no loss of visibility. Since the area where the substance is removed is still quite small, it would still look like a scratch. If you have a lot of these scratches, you still wouldn't get a flat peel. Maybe i'm just seeing it wrong tho

But you would still have the sides of the scratch which would obscure vision heavily, in this case.

Unless the paint was razor thin, and therefore the sides of it would obscure little to no vision.

TNine wrote:The point i was trying to make is what would happen if we found a way to make glass/a new material that would not refract as much as glass does right now, so that a scratch made would be less opaque and more a distortion. As i said before, i don't know much about light physics, but i'm fairly certain from what you've told me that if we found this material, it wouldn't scratch as obviously.

And if we found this magically invisible material, scratching would also not produce a skull on the other side, as the scratches would be, wait for it, less opaque and more a distortion! Not to mention that this invisible material wouldn't be able to polarize properly like the visors do.

TNine wrote:Laws of physics we currently observe. Actually, isn't it true that we can see through air no matter how unequal? How would be impossible for a material to have this same property, in that a scratch doesn't cause difraction? To be fair, this actually just adds another problem of how we can see the skull.

I pointed this flaw out almost immediatly after presenting the theory.

TNine wrote:I'm saying that the air molecules that take the longer path don't speed up to reach the end of the wing at the same time as the air molecules that take the shorter path. The longer path molecules just arrive at the tail of the wing later.

So no, we don't know why planes creat lift.

Which is not entirely true. While the molecules do not speed up to catch up with their brethren below, they still travel faster, which creates a low pressure system (my mistake before, the high pressure is under the wing), causing lift. We know why planes create lift. The shape of the wing forces the air molecules to become slightly denser (as it forces those on a straight path up into the molecules above it), which results in the molecules traveling faster above the wing than below it, creating lift.

See earlier link.

TNine wrote:Totally transparent is poor wording. I meant far more transparent and non-distorting than glass. So yes, air can distort light, but it doesn't do so as quickly as glass does. If we had a material that distorted light less quickly than glass does, would it not cause less visible scratching and cracking.

But air is less transparent because it has no solid form. Objects with solid forms would have to be invisible to refract light in the same manner that a gas does. Because air is not solid, light can pass through it unhindered by just pushing aside the gaseous molecules. Light cannot do this with a solid.

This is, of course, assuming Bungie would look so far into something. We also don't know how energy shields work, but i don't see you complaining about that. Or how slipspace works. Or how the armour can amplify movement without requiring extra power.

TNine wrote:Overall, i think Bungie is doing what's in Bungie's best interest. If they can attract a bunch of little kids to buy this game at the price of a rather small part of the story, which alone is hardly canon-breaking (i still don't think anyone, no matter how much of a canon-hugger, is going to avoid this game because of an unrealistic skull). If they are doing a bunch of this it, than this is bad, but if it's the only real problem, than it should be fine.

If we ignore the fact that it is supposed to be illegal for these little kids to play a Mature game...

Keyword.

TNine wrote:Unless the paint was razor thin, and therefore the sides of it would obscure little to no vision.

If the layer was that thin, the scratch would basically not exist.

TNine wrote:See earlier link.

The issue being that you linked to some random article written by some random guy, and I pulled an image from Wikipedia's explanation of lift. The image makes it clear that the air doesn't speed up to catch up with the air on the bottom, but also makes it clear that the air is traveling much faster on the top due to the shape of the airfoil, and thus is creating low pressure above and high pressure below the airfoil, thus creating lift.

TNine wrote:This is, of course, assuming Bungie would look so far into something. We also don't know how energy shields work, but i don't see you complaining about that.

Because we have a basic understanding of energy shields. They don't defy the laws of physics. They are just beyond our current technology.

TNine wrote:Or how slipspace works.

The books explain how Slipspace works. By generating mini black holes (something we can almost achieve right now), it tears a hole in Space Time, allowing for access to the 11th dimension (which exists per String Theory), and that travel in this dimension is much faster, albeit inaccurate, which makes sense within String Theory.

TNine wrote:Or how the armour can amplify movement without requiring extra power.

They are powered suits. Ergo why earlier models needed to be plugged in.

TNine wrote:Keyword.

Point stands. Bungie should not be purposely marketing a mature game at an immature audience.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

TNine wrote:Unless the paint was razor thin, and therefore the sides of it would obscure little to no vision.

If the layer was that thin, the scratch would basically not exist.

The color differennce would still exist, and would still look like a scratch.

TNine wrote:See earlier link.

The issue being that you linked to some random article written by some random guy, and I pulled an image from Wikipedia's explanation of lift. The image makes it clear that the air doesn't speed up to catch up with the air on the bottom, but also makes it clear that the air is traveling much faster on the top due to the shape of the airfoil, and thus is creating low pressure above and high pressure below the airfoil, thus creating lift.

I would like to know where that image came from. And my article was about some correction to some textbook. Nonetheless, this topic has evolved to do little with what is at hand.

TNine wrote:This is, of course, assuming Bungie would look so far into something. We also don't know how energy shields work, but i don't see you complaining about that.

Because we have a basic understanding of energy shields. They don't defy the laws of physics. They are just beyond our current technology.

err...those things are pretty physics-defying. They stop movement without the equal and opposite reaction. Newton's third law just got crushed.

TNine wrote:Or how slipspace works.

The books explain how Slipspace works. By generating mini black holes (something we can almost achieve right now), it tears a hole in Space Time, allowing for access to the 11th dimension (which exists per String Theory), and that travel in this dimension is much faster, albeit inaccurate, which makes sense within String Theory.

The eleventh dimension in string theory means that we could not only travel through time, but we could go to seperate dimension with different probabilities, ie a dimension we never found the covenant. The eleventh dimension is all that is, was, could be, and could have been. I do not recall slipspace being able to do that.
Also: http://xkcd.com/171/

TNine wrote:Or how the armour can amplify movement without requiring extra power.

They are powered suits. Ergo why earlier models needed to be plugged in.

Whoops. Hehe, that one was mainly to extend my list.

TNine wrote:Keyword.

Point stands. Bungie should not be purposely marketing a mature game at an immature audience.

Debateable, especially since that's a lot of their "fanbase" and it maximizes sales. Also, Halo is fairly toned down violence, the only reason it's mature is the flood, and the blood they put in because they couldn't get it down from mature.

TNine wrote:The color differennce would still exist, and would still look like a scratch.

Actually, if the layer was that thin, it wouldn't resemble a scratch, and would resemble someone peeling a layer away, but missing bits (like peeling away a sticker). It is the depth that differentiates between each individual scratch.

TNine wrote:I would like to know where that image came from. And my article was about some correction to some textbook. Nonetheless, this topic has evolved to do little with what is at hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_(force)#A_more_rigorous_physical_description

TNine wrote:err...those things are pretty physics-defying. They stop movement without the equal and opposite reaction. Newton's third law just got crushed.

Which isn't true. There is an equal and opposite reaction. Hence why shields can be overloaded, and why when a Covenant ship in space is hit by a MAC, even if the shields take the full force of the blow, the ship still reels under the impact. The only thing we can't do is control energy in such a way as to make it a solid in the exact shape we want, which is what shields do.

TNine wrote:The eleventh dimension in string theory means that we could not only travel through time, but we could go to seperate dimension with different probabilities, ie a dimension we never found the covenant. The eleventh dimension is all that is, was, could be, and could have been. I do not recall slipspace being able to do that.

You are incorrect. What you just described is the tenth dimension. We have no fucking idea what the eleventh dimension consists of, just that it must exist, per math.

TNine wrote:Also: http://xkcd.com/171/

Of course, the fact that the mathematics and physics heavily support String Theory should also be taken into account.

TNine wrote:Debateable, especially since that's a lot of their "fanbase" and it maximizes sales. Also, Halo is fairly toned down violence, the only reason it's mature is the flood, and the blood they put in because they couldn't get it down from mature.

The language certainly doesn't help.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

TNine wrote:The color differennce would still exist, and would still look like a scratch.

Actually, if the layer was that thin, it wouldn't resemble a scratch, and would resemble someone peeling a layer away, but missing bits (like peeling away a sticker). It is the depth that differentiates between each individual scratch.

I'd have to look back at the vid to see what you are talking about, i didn't really noticed any "depth" to the visor.

TNine wrote:I would like to know where that image came from. And my article was about some correction to some textbook. Nonetheless, this topic has evolved to do little with what is at hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_(force)#A_more_rigorous_physical_description

I meant from directly where, but whatever.

TNine wrote:err...those things are pretty physics-defying. They stop movement without the equal and opposite reaction. Newton's third law just got crushed.

Which isn't true. There is an equal and opposite reaction. Hence why shields can be overloaded, and why when a Covenant ship in space is hit by a MAC, even if the shields take the full force of the blow, the ship still reels under the impact. The only thing we can't do is control energy in such a way as to make it a solid in the exact shape we want, which is what shields do.

Nonetheless, i'm fairly sure the sheilds on the Spartan's and Elites and Jackals armour reduces the kinetic energy of the bullet. But i guess that's possible, you can transfer it directly into entropy. Food for though.

TNine wrote:The eleventh dimension in string theory means that we could not only travel through time, but we could go to seperate dimension with different probabilities, ie a dimension we never found the covenant. The eleventh dimension is all that is, was, could be, and could have been. I do not recall slipspace being able to do that.

You are incorrect. What you just described is the tenth dimension. We have no fucking idea what the eleventh dimension consists of, just that it must exist, per math.

Nonetheless, traveling to the eleventh dimension would also be traveling to the tenth, in the same way you can't have depth without length and width.

TNine wrote:Debateable, especially since that's a lot of their "fanbase" and it maximizes sales. Also, Halo is fairly toned down violence, the only reason it's mature is the flood, and the blood they put in because they couldn't get it down from mature.

The language certainly doesn't help.

No, it probably doesn't, but kids that age (i'm guessing like 10-14) are already exposed aplenty to that kind of language, especially from eachother.

TNine wrote:I'd have to look back at the vid to see what you are talking about, i didn't really noticed any "depth" to the visor.

Essentially, it would appear as if paint had flaked away from a wall, rather than a series of actual scratches, if the scratchable layer (why even have a scratchable and a non-scratchable layer?) is paper thin. Since flaking does not resemble scratches, this is not what is happening.

TNine wrote:I meant from directly where, but whatever.

An Introduction to Fluid Dynamics, by G.K. Batchelor of Cambridge University Press, pages 141–164.

TNine wrote:Nonetheless, i'm fairly sure the sheilds on the Spartan's and Elites and Jackals armour reduces the kinetic energy of the bullet. But i guess that's possible, you can transfer it directly into entropy. Food for though.

Or, because the solid energy does not physically touch the user, but hovers a quarter of an inch above, much of the kinetic energy is lost when transfered from shield to user.

TNine wrote:Nonetheless, traveling to the eleventh dimension would also be traveling to the tenth, in the same way you can't have depth without length and width.

That's not necessarily true. You see, theoretically, because the tenth dimension is absolute infinity, the eleventh dimension cannot exist. But mathematically, it must exist. The concept, from my basic understanding of things, is that the eleventh dimension is a sort of membrane that connects the other dimensions. Slipspace is probably a bit more stable than current physics allows for, but this is the sort of thing we can forgive in a science fiction. One-way invisible glass, on the other hand, is not.

TNine wrote:No, it probably doesn't, but kids that age (i'm guessing like 10-14) are already exposed aplenty to that kind of language, especially from eachother.

But how can they be exposed to it by each other? It had to be introduced in some way. And the introducer is a mix of various digital medias.

Why don't we ask Bungie why they did it if you guys really want to know.

Felix wrote:Why don't we ask Bungie why they did it if you guys really want to know.

Well, if you have some contacts high up in Bungie, why don't you ask them? My main contact for clearing up Halo information has always been Eric Nylund, and he's not part of Halo Reach.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Felix wrote:Why don't we ask Bungie why they did it if you guys really want to know.

Well, if you have some contacts high up in Bungie, why don't you ask them? My main contact for clearing up Halo information has always been Eric Nylund, and he's not part of Halo Reach.

I keep my contacts secret...

But seriously, I mean you can ask Bungie questions on B.net (I don't know how, and I don't care to find out). You'll most likely (if answered) will just be something along the lines "we can't revel info on that topic yet".

Felix wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Felix wrote:Why don't we ask Bungie why they did it if you guys really want to know.

Well, if you have some contacts high up in Bungie, why don't you ask them? My main contact for clearing up Halo information has always been Eric Nylund, and he's not part of Halo Reach.

I keep my contacts secret...

But seriously, I mean you can ask Bungie questions on B.net (I don't know how, and I don't care to find out). You'll most likely (if answered) will just be something along the lines "we can't revel info on that topic yet".

In other words they are saying "We are still thinking of some loophole to avoid being pinned for this"

Rotaretilbo wrote:

TNine wrote:I'd have to look back at the vid to see what you are talking about, i didn't really noticed any "depth" to the visor.

Essentially, it would appear as if paint had flaked away from a wall, rather than a series of actual scratches, if the scratchable layer (why even have a scratchable and a non-scratchable layer?) is paper thin. Since flaking does not resemble scratches, this is not what is happening.

He could, of course, have done the scratching with a really sharp knife, and therefore wouldn't get all the paint, and there would still be "borders" along the scratches. And the non-scratchable layer would be for durability, while the top layer would be direct shielding from light, which may not work behind the thicker more durable layer.

TNine wrote:Nonetheless, i'm fairly sure the sheilds on the Spartan's and Elites and Jackals armour reduces the kinetic energy of the bullet. But i guess that's possible, you can transfer it directly into entropy. Food for though.

Or, because the solid energy does not physically touch the user, but hovers a quarter of an inch above, much of the kinetic energy is lost when transfered from shield to user.

Therefore transferring it into entropy. Which i commented on in my post.

I still don't see how having a hovering shield that's not solid but has the properties of a solid is not defying the logic of physics more than my air-glass hybrid.

TNine wrote:Nonetheless, traveling to the eleventh dimension would also be traveling to the tenth, in the same way you can't have depth without length and width.

That's not necessarily true. You see, theoretically, because the tenth dimension is absolute infinity, the eleventh dimension cannot exist. But mathematically, it must exist. The concept, from my basic understanding of things, is that the eleventh dimension is a sort of membrane that connects the other dimensions. Slipspace is probably a bit more stable than current physics allows for, but this is the sort of thing we can forgive in a science fiction. One-way invisible glass, on the other hand, is not.

I still don't see why not. It's hardly like any of the laws of physics are set in stone, we see changes to science daily. I also don't know why my auto-flattening glass that wouldn't allow for dents, only clean cuts, wouldn't work.

TNine wrote:No, it probably doesn't, but kids that age (i'm guessing like 10-14) are already exposed aplenty to that kind of language, especially from eachother.

But how can they be exposed to it by each other? It had to be introduced in some way. And the introducer is a mix of various digital medias.

They would be exposed to it by movies their older siblings/parents are watching, the older siblings/parents themselves, or movies they see uncensored on their TV, the internet (ah, the internet), or any kid at school who has been exposed to any of these things. And this marketing is mainly for the preteen to early teen range (10-15), who have probably been exposed aplenty to this type of thing.

Also, there isn't much swearing in Halo. I've never heard any of the dirtier swear words, "hell" and "damn" are pretty much as far as it gets.



Edit: I still don't understand why we are making the assumption that Bungie dug this deep into physics to make sure something that wasn't directed at use was okay by us. They probably thought that some materials could do this, and put it in. Because, in the long run, who gives a fuck if some character's visor didn't follows the physics of light?

becuase Halo 1 came out and had everything possible or proven to work then halo two followed suit. then Halo 3 got a on edge but still worked out fine with it, we are disregarding halo wars from ever existing and then now we have reach and bungie is going back on everything they already have done.

Whoops, accidental post.

we care because the spartan would be nearly blind


it is an idiotic character design made for kids.


bungie might as well cut the bad language and market it directly to them.. as I know few adults who can actually stand the game any more

Felix wrote:I keep my contacts secret...

But seriously, I mean you can ask Bungie questions on B.net (I don't know how, and I don't care to find out). You'll most likely (if answered) will just be something along the lines "we can't revel info on that topic yet".

Even if they did answer, I doubt it would be serious. When asked why ODST could life and wield those stationary chain guns after Halo 3 specifically said only Spartans could on Spike TV, Frankie O'Conner revealed that it was "in the spirit of fun" and that the ODST were "inspired by how much fun the Spartans were having" and such bullshit as that.

TNine wrote:He could, of course, have done the scratching with a really sharp knife, and therefore wouldn't get all the paint, and there would still be "borders" along the scratches. And the non-scratchable layer would be for durability, while the top layer would be direct shielding from light, which may not work behind the thicker more durable layer.

If the scratches are too thin, there would have to be a lot of them close together to make the skull, and they would still obscure one's view just as bad.

TNine wrote:Therefore transferring it into entropy. Which i commented on in my post.

Fair enough.

TNine wrote:I still don't see how having a hovering shield that's not solid but has the properties of a solid is not defying the logic of physics more than my air-glass hybrid.

Energy has different properties than material. Manipulating energy to make it solid doesn't defy physics. Creating a material that refracts light like a gas does, because it is the very fact that it is a gas that allows gases to refract light less than solids.

TNine wrote:I still don't see why not. It's hardly like any of the laws of physics are set in stone, we see changes to science daily.

That's not true. Many of the basic laws of physics are pretty much set in stone. The what is set in stone, but not the how or why. You are talking about a change in what light does, not how it does or why it does what it does.

TNine wrote:I also don't know why my auto-flattening glass that wouldn't allow for dents, only clean cuts, wouldn't work.

A scratch-proof glass is certainly possible, but it isn't an explanation for the skull visor.

TNine wrote:They would be exposed to it by movies their older siblings/parents are watching, the older siblings/parents themselves, or movies they see uncensored on their TV, the internet (ah, the internet), or any kid at school who has been exposed to any of these things. And this marketing is mainly for the preteen to early teen range (10-15), who have probably been exposed aplenty to this type of thing.

That's unfair. You're blaming all of the other sources, but not accepting responsibility for gaming. Gaming is just as much an introducer of swear words as movies, TV, or radio. It would be just like if the movie industry blamed video games for being a bad influence.

TNine wrote:Also, there isn't much swearing in Halo. I've never heard any of the dirtier swear words, "hell" and "damn" are pretty much as far as it gets.

not as much as some games, but I think they drop shit once, maybe twice.

TNine wrote:Edit: I still don't understand why we are making the assumption that Bungie dug this deep into physics to make sure something that wasn't directed at use was okay by us. They probably thought that some materials could do this, and put it in. Because, in the long run, who gives a fuck if some character's visor didn't follows the physics of light?

But that's the issue. They should have thought it through. They are old enough that they should know that this doesn't make sense and looks like a lame attempt to look "cool."

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Even if they did answer, I doubt it would be serious. When asked why ODST could life and wield those stationary chain guns after Halo 3 specifically said only Spartans could on Spike TV, Frankie O'Conner revealed that it was "in the spirit of fun" and that the ODST were "inspired by how much fun the Spartans were having" and such bullshit as that.

Would you rather they didn't answer?

Yes, at least we would have a sliver or respect in the aftermath of it all.

dragoon9105 wrote:Yes, at least we would have a sliver or respect in the aftermath of it all.

You know it's a helmet, right?

Felix wrote:Would you rather they didn't answer?

Yes, because then they can't fall back on a cheap cop out answer if we grilled them about it later.

Or we could just email them this thread! I'm sure the constant banter about "Skull face" would make them change their ways..