Existence of God

Zaki90 wrote:1. Isn't Christianity a branch of Judaism.

It is a branch that Judaism acknowledges was going to exist. It was written that the Messiah would come. There is no writing in the Bible saying a second would come.

Zaki90 wrote:2. The people wrote as he spoke.

And then the rewrites began.

Zaki90 wrote:3. Mohammed died. He wasn't a god. He like most other prophets died.

Isn't it taught that he ascended into Heaven at Mecca or something to that nature?

Zaki90 wrote:4. Islam came too late? WTF is that supposed to mean. Does Atheism come to late too?

Atheism has been around as long as the believe in an Abrahamic God, so no, it doesn't.

Zaki90 wrote:5. Islam is very very different than modern Christianity today. It brought about the changes in the Middle East that revolutionized the idea of women, slaves, human rights, and brought worship to the next level.

Ironic that you mention that, when women, slaves, and human rights are things most Islamic nations seem to neglect.

Zaki90 wrote:In Islam, you get down on the floor and pray. 5 times a day, every day unless your sick or don't have the strength to pray.

And if you do not? I wasn't aware that God cared when you prayed or what way you faced or how you positioned your body.

Zaki90 wrote:Marriage is very different. You get married once. Divorces are rare.

Not actually that big a difference, it's just that in America, morals have plummeted to the point where marriages rarely last because people don't view it as a true commitment.

Zaki90 wrote:Islam is so much different from Christianity.

Our similarity are only in belief. Muslims are devout to God.

They are not perfect. But they stress everyday to worship God. My dad prayed in the restroom when he was a airplane.

It is almost creepy how they have coped with such a open and free environment. They battle immense temptation everyday. They passively ignore it.

The difference between Christianity and Islam is farther than you think.

But it isn't a difference in teachings, but in the followers, really. And even then, most Muslims are devout to God out of pure fear. You yourself described your relationship with God as a master/slave relationship, despite it saying in the Bible that we are children of God, not slaves of God.

Rot wrote:knowing that I am part of something bigger, that there is some purpose in life, has certainly helped in that regard.

But you DON'T know that. It's as if you analysed the reppercussions of Christianities possibilities, decided it would be cool if they were true, and then told yourself it WAS true enough times that you came to believe it. Anyways, to be 'born again,' in the first place, you had to have already been a rather strong believer.

I'm asking why you came to the "conclusion" in the first place. You're giving me examples of things that reinforced those conclusions.

Rot wrote:Well, I believe that there is a God. From there, I can look at the different organized religions to see which is more likely to represent him.

Ok, so you believe that there is a god, but why MUST one of the religions be true? Why is it that you seem to think that, once it is determined that there is a god, the only possibilities beyond that are one of the common religions?

You're acting like those religions are the only possible answers, and that you HAVE TO choose one of them. I'm not asking you why you chose Christianity over the other religions. I'm asking you why you ACTUALLY believe any of it to be true.

Rot wrote:Faith isn't something that can be logically explained, and many times, the things that cause someone to have faith are not things that can be applied to other people, because they are personal experiences. For example, a few posts above, some people were talking about encountering ghosts. Despite logical evidence, they have faith that ghosts exist. While we might be skeptical of their encounters, their encounters provide them faith that such things exist. If I told you of all the times I had strange encounters in which something simply couldn't have been a coincidence, you'd be skeptical, and I doubt it would help you to understand any better.

Well you did a good job of explaining it, but I still don't accept that as worthy cause for belief. Maybe you should really think about these events that have occurred to you, and rather than just immediately file them aways as 'proof of God,' actually think about the alternatives. As I said before, I 'saw a ghost' when I was 6 or 7 years old. It scared the hell out of me, but I have since reasoned with myself, and come to the conclusion that I was probably either dreaming, or hallucinating.

Rot wrote:But if that were true, everyone would be a true agnostic and neither believe that there was nor that there was not a God. It requires faith to take the step and believe in God, but it also takes faith to believe that there is no God. It is just easier to take the latter because the former often brings you under criticism from "scholars."

Notice how I mentioned that I was talking about non-religious folk, like myself. We cannot just tell ourselves what to believe, and frankly, I'm not convinced that people like you can either. Think about it in a different situation. If I was holding a gun to your head, and told you to believe that I was your God, would you be able to legitimately believe it on command?

Anyways, I'm beginning to tire of the word 'faith,' now. I'm slowly coming to the realization that it doesn't really mean anything.

ReconToaster wrote: But you DON'T know that. It's as if you analysed the reppercussions of Christianities possibilities, decided it would be cool if they were true, and then told yourself it WAS true enough times that you came to believe it. Anyways, to be 'born again,' in the first place, you had to have already been a rather strong believer.

I'm asking why you came to the "conclusion" in the first place. You're giving me examples of things that reinforced those conclusions.

Well, I was, technically speaking, "born again" at a very early age. Sometimes I regret having been saved so young, because it means I have basically no testament, because my life wasn't really all that bad when I first converted. I was a backslidden Christian for a long time, and only recently truly became devout, so you might say that the reasons that reinforce my initial decision are the reasons I came to the conclusion.

Recon_Toaster wrote: Ok, so you believe that there is a god, but why MUST one of the religions be true? Why is it that you seem to think that, once it is determined that there is a god, the only possibilities beyond that are one of the common religions?

You're acting like those religions are the only possible answers, and that you HAVE TO choose one of them. I'm not asking you why you chose Christianity over the other religions. I'm asking you why you ACTUALLY believe any of it to be true.

Well, let me rephrase. I believe that there is a God, and that he would make himself known to some people, so it would only make sense that one religion is actually right.

Recon_Toaster wrote: Well you did a good job of explaining it, but I still don't accept that as worthy cause for belief. Maybe you should really think about these events that have occurred to you, and rather than just immediately file them aways as 'proof of God,' actually think about the alternatives. As I said before, I 'saw a ghost' when I was 6 or 7 years old. It scared the hell out of me, but I have since reasoned with myself, and come to the conclusion that I was probably either dreaming, or hallucinating.

Oh, believe me, I certainly have. Some of them have possible alternative solutions, but most of it comes down to writing each and everyone to chance.

Recon_Toaster wrote: Notice how I mentioned that I was talking about non-religious folk, like myself. We cannot just tell ourselves what to believe, and frankly, I'm not convinced that people like you can either. Think about it in a different situation. If I was holding a gun to your head, and told you to believe that I was your God, would you be able to legitimately believe it on command?

Probably not, no.

Recon_Toaster wrote: Anyways, I'm beginning to tire of the word 'faith,' now. I'm slowly coming to the realization that it doesn't really mean anything.

Faith isn't about forcing one's self to believe something, but choosing to believe something that isn't necessarily proven. For example, I can have faith that a certain sports team will win a game. I can't prove that they will until they do, but I can believe that they will. I don't have to force myself to believe this. I have faith in creationism and an Abrahamic God, and others have faith in evolution, for example. You don't force yourself to believe in evolution, etc.

Zaki90 wrote:Marriage is very different. You get married once. Divorces are rare.

Except for, of course, that freebie "I'm away from home, so I can get a second wife!"

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:1. Isn't Christianity a branch of Judaism.

It is a branch that Judaism acknowledges was going to exist. It was written that the Messiah would come. There is no writing in the Bible saying a second would come.

And there is no idea of Mohamed in the Bible at all.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:2. The people wrote as he spoke.

And then the rewrites began.

The rewrites were given to professional that trained their entire life to perfectly copy down every last detail in the previous writing to the next. These professionals were chosen only by the king.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:3. Mohammed died. He wasn't a god. He like most other prophets died.

Isn't it taught that he ascended into Heaven at Mecca or something to that nature?

He went to Heaven for 40 days from Jerusalem came back. Some say he was poisoned, or murdered. Maybe even died of old age. No one is for sure about his death.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:4. Islam came too late? WTF is that supposed to mean. Does Atheism come to late too?

Atheism has been around as long as the believe in an Abrahamic God, so no, it doesn't.

Too late shouldn't be a point. I could say Christianity came too late. Too late is not a real point on judging whether something is right or wrong.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:5. Islam is very very different than modern Christianity today. It brought about the changes in the Middle East that revolutionized the idea of women, slaves, human rights, and brought worship to the next level.

Ironic that you mention that, when women, slaves, and human rights are things most Islamic nations seem to neglect.

First off, you said Islamic nations. Not Islam.

What Islam teaches is not what some "Islamic" nations believe in.

You saying Islamic nations are bad. I can say Christen America has no morals. Strip clubs litter the streets. Gambling and drinking is all that happens. They try to kill homosexuals and people who work on Sabbath. They attack Iraq for oil. Caused the global economic recession. Killed 2 million native americans. Stole their land. Celebrate Columbus Day, Christopher Columbus being the man who made it to America thinking it was India, raped Native Americans. All Christens care about is how big their car is and how much fuel it uses per the gallon.

Judge Islam for what Islam teaches and the true followers, judge everyone religion for what it teaches and it's true followers.

The government isn't Islam. And true Islam is not the government.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:In Islam, you get down on the floor and pray. 5 times a day, every day unless your sick or don't have the strength to pray.

And if you do not? I wasn't aware that God cared when you prayed or what way you faced or how you positioned your body.

Zaki90 wrote:Marriage is very different. You get married once. Divorces are rare.

Not actually that big a difference, it's just that in America, morals have plummeted to the point where marriages rarely last because people don't view it as a true commitment.[/quote]

I was talking about an average Christian in America.

Zaki90 wrote:Islam is so much different from Christianity.

Our similarity are only in belief. Muslims are devout to God.

They are not perfect. But they stress everyday to worship God. My dad prayed in the restroom when he was a airplane.

It is almost creepy how they have coped with such a open and free environment. They battle immense temptation everyday. They passively ignore it.

The difference between Christianity and Islam is farther than you think.

But it isn't a difference in teachings, but in the followers, really. And even then, most Muslims are devout to God out of pure fear. You yourself described your relationship with God as a master/slave relationship, despite it saying in the Bible that we are children of God, not slaves of God.[/quote]

Yes, beliefs and teachings are about the same.

Most Muslims are devout to God of fear because of sins. God has shown he can and has flood and kill all those sinners. Christians just say Jesus died for me so I'm free.

God is my master and I am his slave. I do what ever he asks without a question or price.

What is your relationship with God? Do not say love.

Zaki90 wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:1. Isn't Christianity a branch of Judaism.

It is a branch that Judaism acknowledges was going to exist. It was written that the Messiah would come. There is no writing in the Bible saying a second would come.

And there is no idea of Mohamed in the Bible at all.

At all. Jesus specifically said that no more prophets or messiahs would come.

Zaki90 wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:5. Islam is very very different than modern Christianity today. It brought about the changes in the Middle East that revolutionized the idea of women, slaves, human rights, and brought worship to the next level.

Zaki90 wrote:What is your relationship with God? Do not say love.

So, you deny a possible answer, when it is a legitimate answer?
Could you give a reason for denying it?

Ironic that you mention that, when women, slaves, and human rights are things most Islamic nations seem to neglect.

First off, you said Islamic nations. Not Islam.

What Islam teaches is not what some "Islamic" nations believe in.

True, it would not be relevant, except for one thing:
America was founded on freedom of religion.
Iran and Syria were founded on Islamic law, with Islamic customs and Islamic clerics.
So why aren't they following the Quran?

Zaki90 wrote:
What is your relationship with God? Do not say love.

What's 2+2? Do not say 4.

God loves us, as the Bible tells us. He also has infinite patience. He gave us Paradise, we through ourselves out. He gave us free will, we started to sin. Yet he lets us live with free will, and be able to control our lives, but we must accept the consequences, as can be seen in the world today. If he came down and fixed everything, would we truly be free? Freedom comes with responsibility.

Absolute faith, total and complete belief in God, has not existed since Jesus. I know that it is stated in the bible that if you truly believed in God, you could tell a mountain to jump into a lake and it would listen. Unfortunatly, it is innate that humans will doubt, and thus never believe.

God loves, and wants us to love him back. If he wanted mindless followers, he would have stayed with angels. This is why we have free will, so that we can truly love him.

I have always found it wierd that every religion with a God has the same basic beliefs, with few exceptions. I believe this may be a sign.

A little "proof" of the Lord's word is this: This bible was written off of thousands of eyewitness accounts, and THEN compiled 300 years later (well, the New Testament was). What are the chances that they would all say the same thing? Good, if they conspired together. Next question: What are the chances that THOUSANDS of people would conspire together to form a new religion, and for what reason? If you believe this, then you could easily believe that all the scientists in the world are conspiring together to disprove God. But if you said that, you would be crazy, now wouldn't ya?

It doesn't take THOUSANDS, it only takes one

Lord Pheonix wrote:It doesn't take THOUSANDS, it only takes one

And every single person that one person healed, plus the talking of his coming over which he had no control, and the twelve apostles. The people were there, the events did take place.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:1. Isn't Christianity a branch of Judaism.

It is a branch that Judaism acknowledges was going to exist. It was written that the Messiah would come. There is no writing in the Bible saying a second would come.

And there is no idea of Mohamed in the Bible at all.

At all. Jesus specifically said that no more prophets or messiahs would come.

Exactly? Did you misspell anything? Are you agreeing with me?

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:5. Islam is very very different than modern Christianity today. It brought about the changes in the Middle East that revolutionized the idea of women, slaves, human rights, and brought worship to the next level.

Zaki90 wrote:What is your relationship with God? Do not say love.

So, you deny a possible answer, when it is a legitimate answer?
Could you give a reason for denying it?

Ironic that you mention that, when women, slaves, and human rights are things most Islamic nations seem to neglect.

First off, you said Islamic nations. Not Islam.

What Islam teaches is not what some "Islamic" nations believe in.

True, it would not be relevant, except for one thing:
America was founded on freedom of religion.
Iran and Syria were founded on Islamic law, with Islamic customs and Islamic clerics.
So why aren't they following the Quran?

I think Rot was talking about Saudi Arabia.

Slavery is not allowed, women have equal rights, and humans have human rights in both Syria and Iran.

They are following the Quran. But they also have their own laws too.

America was founded by a bunch of rich, land owning, white, male, christian colonists who didn't want to pay extra tax to be protected by Britain.

I remember native Americans being forced to believing Chrisanity in the text books. What about swearing on the Bible when going to court. What about "one Nation under God". This country was not founded on freedom of religion. The Pilgrims were actually hypocrites. They fled Britain the believe what they wanna believe and then came in America forcing native Americans to what they believe.

It must have happened, just like that.

TNine wrote:
God loves us, as the Bible tells us.

The bible says a lot of things.

TNine wrote:
He also has infinite patience. He gave us Paradise, we through ourselves out. He gave us free will, we started to sin. Yet he lets us live with free will, and be able to control our lives, but we must accept the consequences, as can be seen in the world today. If he came down and fixed everything, would we truly be free? Freedom comes with responsibility.

If he truly loved us, he would. What kind of a malevolent god would let what happens in the world happen. I know you have your answers, but frankly, they're dumb. Someone who loves us wouldn't stand for this.

TNine wrote:
Absolute faith, total and complete belief in God, has not existed since Jesus.

Because... that is when he stated preaching of his god?? Yeah

TNine wrote:
I know that it is stated in the bible that if you truly believed in God, you could tell a mountain to jump into a lake and it would listen. Unfortunatly, it is innate that humans will doubt, and thus never believe.

that brings us to the law of attration, which I will not go in depth about.

TNine wrote:
God loves, and wants us to love him back. If he wanted mindless followers, he would have stayed with angels. This is why we have free will, so that we can truly love him.

So... you're idea of love is letting millions at the hands of a mad man? (Holocaust) If we we're loved, I'm sure something should've been done to save those he loves.
Now, define love, and tell me, if you love someone would you let them die?

TNine wrote:
I have always found it wierd that every religion with a God has the same basic beliefs, with few exceptions. I believe this may be a sign.

That everyones paranoid? Yes

TNine wrote:
A little "proof" of the Lord's word is this: This bible was written off of thousands of eyewitness accounts, and THEN compiled 300 years later (well, the New Testament was). What are the chances that they would all say the same thing? Good, if they conspired together. Next question: What are the chances that THOUSANDS of people would conspire together to form a new religion, and for what reason? If you believe this, then you could easily believe that all the scientists in the world are conspiring together to disprove God. But if you said that, you would be crazy, now wouldn't ya?

It took one man's insane words to turn the heads of the weak spirited to make them believe.
Excuse: Everyone wants something to believe in this world, so they make up some belevonent being of pure love, and preach he is real. God forbid you FORCE people into believing, by making them think, if you don't believe your going to hell! Then the other weak spirited fall for this...

Then half of the fucking world thinks irrationally and believes in something that cannot be explain or proven. It could or could not be a false hope! What if god was completely disproven, what then? Would people still believe? Yes, they would, because they would panic thinking they have nothing to use as a scapegoat in their lives anymore. So much that they become paranoid and still believe.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:Marriage is very different. You get married once. Divorces are rare.

Except for, of course, that freebie "I'm away from home, so I can get a second wife!"

A temporary second wife. Almost like a girlfriend. But people rarely do that. And you have to be away from home for more than 3 months. Both wives are treated the same.

TNine wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:
What is your relationship with God? Do not say love.

What's 2+2? Do not say 4.

But if I explain to you that 2+2 is not truly 4. Why do you say 4 again.

TNine wrote:God loves us, as the Bible tells us. He also has infinite patience. He gave us Paradise, we through ourselves out. He gave us free will, we started to sin. Yet he lets us live with free will, and be able to control our lives, but we must accept the consequences, as can be seen in the world today. If he came down and fixed everything, would we truly be free? Freedom comes with responsibility.

I just explained to you that you do not truly love God. You love what he was given you. That is not true love. Yes, he can fix stuff. Maybe bring us more food. More shelter. More space. We don't lose our freedom. We lose our problems.


Infinite patience? So, maybe he should have waited for sinners realized their wrong doing and board the Ark. Nope, God flooded and killed all of them. They were warned. But if he had infinite patience he would have waited eternally for them to realize what is going on and get on the ark.

TNine wrote:Absolute faith, total and complete belief in God, has not existed since Jesus. I know that it is stated in the bible that if you truly believed in God, you could tell a mountain to jump into a lake and it would listen. Unfortunatly, it is innate that humans will doubt, and thus never believe.

You mean completely believe.

TNine wrote:God loves, and wants us to love him back. If he wanted mindless followers, he would have stayed with angels. This is why we have free will, so that we can truly love him.

You do not love God. You love what he gives you. Which means you don't truly love him. How many times must I repeat myself.

TNine wrote:I have always found it wierd that every religion with a God has the same basic beliefs, with few exceptions. I believe this may be a sign.

Well, duh. God is the basic beliefs. So as long you believe in God, you have the same basic beliefs.

TNine wrote:A little "proof" of the Lord's word is this: This bible was written off of thousands of eyewitness accounts, and THEN compiled 300 years later (well, the New Testament was). What are the chances that they would all say the same thing? Good, if they conspired together. Next question: What are the chances that THOUSANDS of people would conspire together to form a new religion, and for what reason? If you believe this, then you could easily believe that all the scientists in the world are conspiring together to disprove God. But if you said that, you would be crazy, now wouldn't ya?

Why would they conspire... To spread the word of the gospel

im a saint i believe in him 100%

Zaki90 wrote:1. Isn't Christianity a branch of Judaism.

It is a branch that Judaism acknowledges was going to exist. It was written that the Messiah would come. There is no writing in the Bible saying a second would come.

Then technically Islam is a Branch of Christianity (as a branch of Judaism (as a branch of an older Babylonian religion)) as Jesus is one of the 130,000 prophets of Islam.

Ringleader wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:1. Isn't Christianity a branch of Judaism.

It is a branch that Judaism acknowledges was going to exist. It was written that the Messiah would come. There is no writing in the Bible saying a second would come.

Then technically Islam is a Branch of Christianity (as a branch of Judaism (as a branch of an older Babylonian religion)) as Jesus is one of the 130,000 prophets of Islam.

More like about 124,000. No one really knows how many prophets are in Christianity. No can even estimate how many.

Older Babylonian religion? What is this older Babylonian religion. And how does it relate to the Abrahmic religion tree.

:suspect:

If I knew its name, I would have put it in parentheses. Many of the old tales, like the flood were from the Assyro-Babylonian religion, which is considered the oldest Semitic religion. Even it wasn't the first in the line though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyro-Babylonian_religion

Well seeing as how most of the "main" religions support the existance of the same God (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormanism) there's many more but I dont feel like naming them. Although people are ignorant enough to say that an Islamic person doesnt believe in God, its not true, they don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, he was just another prophet, and Jewish people believe the same thing. (I know this really doesnt pertain), but its amazing how ignorant/idiotic some people can be when they say that people of religions other than christianity don't believe in God.

I was playing Halo 3, and this guy kept saying "Mormon Jesus" over and over again.

and?

well, that's it, he kept saying it for eternity.

Ringleader wrote:If I knew its name, I would have put it in parentheses. Many of the old tales, like the flood were from the Assyro-Babylonian religion, which is considered the oldest Semitic religion. Even it wasn't the first in the line though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyro-Babylonian_religion

Maybe the religion was deprived from Judaism. God said there were 124,000 prophets. And none of them were after Prophet Mohamed.

Remember, the Bible is composed of many eyewitnesses. These people may have told other people and most likely did.

Also, we know that the Bible was made about 3500 years ago. Just about the same age as the Babylon. Thus, 1 god and many other gods formed at the same time. Which means 2 religions at the same time, one saying 1 god, the other involving many. They must have stemmed from around the same thing. Like the witnesses telling stories what happened to their children and passed down. These sources were probably inaccurate. Thus we do not know which is correct. But both have some similar events. They are branches rather than Assyro-Babylonian religion being the main tree.

JB wrote:Well seeing as how most of the "main" religions support the existance of the same God (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Mormanism) there's many more but I dont feel like naming them. Although people are ignorant enough to say that an Islamic person doesnt believe in God, its not true, they don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, he was just another prophet, and Jewish people believe the same thing. (I know this really doesnt pertain), but its amazing how ignorant/idiotic some people can be when they say that people of religions other than christianity don't believe in God.

These main religions all stem from 1 tree. Thus they are somewhat similar.

Some main religions do not stem from this tree. Like Buddhism, Atheism, and Hinduism.

Ignorant people are stupid. You put a fire in front a blind ignorant man and tell him not to step forward. He would probably do it.

Zaki almost right but not quite: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are known as 'Mohammedian' religions - they all contain a selection of profits they share, albeit in different mantras. The asian religions are very different.

Who cares anymore?