Telepads vs Landing pads, an assault on reason

by Ringleader Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:45 am

Rasq'uire'laskar: Trivia question: On which level and game did the Covenant demonstrate teleportation technology?
Ringleader: the one with the spire
Ringleader: they were apparently beaming down troops to the shield spre
Ringleader: when they could have just landed
Rasq'uire'laskar: Nope.
Rasq'uire'laskar: Halo:CE.
Ringleader: the spire was some kind of teleportation reciever pad
Rasq'uire'laskar: Level: Truth & Reconciliation.
Ringleader: they used a gravity lift
Rasq'uire'laskar: They used a gravity lift to get the troops right next to the ship's hull.
Ringleader: then the bottom door would open
Ringleader: and they would fly in, like a phantom
Rasq'uire'laskar: Nope.
Ringleader: are you implying that the gravity lift brought them RIGHT next to the ship, then some unseen teleporter beamed them in?
Rasq'uire'laskar: Yup.
Ringleader: when if they did have a teleporter, they could have beamed them from anywhere on halo as the reach pads did?
Ringleader: so, what the hecks the point of using a gravity lift?
Ringleader: so, did you learn this information from the halo encyclopedia? or was it explained in an episode of halo legends?
Rasq'uire'laskar: http://halo.bungie.org/misc/sloftus_covenantcruiser/images/cc_layout_overall.gif
Rasq'uire'laskar: http://halo.bungie.org/misc/sloftus_covenantcruiser/images/cc_gravlift3.gif
Rasq'uire'laskar: The layouts don't match up.
Rasq'uire'laskar: BUT.
Ringleader: oh because its off center?
Ringleader: dood, are you seriously saying this?
Ringleader: like, seriously!?
Rasq'uire'laskar: Can I explain why it makes sense?
Ringleader: because an in game model thats to be viewed at a distance somehow doesnt match up with the level layout is kind of, standard in halo, I mean, do the UNSC have teleportation technology so it makes the interior of the autumn bigger then the outside?
Ringleader: no, you may not explain why it makes sense, because nothing about what you suggested makes sense
Ringleader: so, would they have to line up in this one grav lift bay to be beamed down?
Ringleader: and if its called a grav lift bay, then maybe its a grav lift bay, and not a teleporter
Ringleader: and if they could beam stuff anywhere, then why even get close to the planet or halo or anything to invade a planet
Ringleader: I mean they did it in reach, but that was kind of a load of b$
Ringleader: emphasis on the dollar sign
Ringleader: I mean, the phantoms bottom opened up, so troops could land
Ringleader: Im sure the CCs would have some kind of irising docking door to prevent that, and why would the gravity lift need to be so big, and why would they need a gravity lift in the first place when they can beam troops anywhere, and why...
Ringleader: the control center is also off center
Ringleader: oh wait, so the level schematic creator mirrored the image over?
Ringleader: so there are 2 gravity lift bays?
Ringleader: hmm, thats some pretty SOLID evidence
Rasq'uire'laskar: The teleportation technology the Covenant DO have on a CSS battlecruiser might be limited, right? It might be limited to from "Right below Platform A" to "Right above platform B, C, D, or F" Teleportation technology isn't always just "From point A to wherever we decide to point the beam".

Note that the Forerunner had a similar system on Onyx and Delta Halo for teleporting Sentinels. The idea that the Forerunner might have had it elsewhere is not a big stretch.
Ringleader: hey, how about the inside of a level really doesnt denote the external features, as is the case with every Halo CE instance
Ringleader: erm, limited, how would you know this? I mean aside from it convienently supporting your theroies
Ringleader: stop trying to rationalize reach, you will be sadly unsuccesful
Rasq'uire'laskar: How would I know WHAT?
Ringleader: yeah, not a big stretch, but they used gravity lifts
Ringleader: how would you know how limited the tech would be on a ccs
Ringleader: besides it convienently supporting your theory
Rasq'uire'laskar: Because it makes sense.
I mean, c'mon. That's like the Church asking Galileo "how would you know that the Earth orbits the Sun, other than that evidence conveniently supporting your theory?"
Ringleader: so, it has to make sense because its conviently your theory again
Ringleader: heh, Im seeing a reocurring theme here
Rasq'uire'laskar: This isn't the first instance of Covenant tech not matching up to what the Forerunner had. E.G., anywhere-to-anywhere teleportation as on Halo.
Ringleader: so its like this, IF The covennat had some kind of super Assault carrier, thats like 200 times bigger, but looks exactly the same as an assualt carrier, they could have landed it and used its gravity lift to land thousands of troops right there, and the ship would have a lot more shields then a relativly tiny spire platform, and also guns to blast any opposing troops.
Ringleader: its like, reach doesnt really make any sense at all?
Ringleader: so we shouldnt try to rationalize it
Rasq'uire'laskar: Hmm...
Rasq'uire'laskar: Maybe because multiple teleportation spires allow for more rapid disbursement of troops, without the Supercarrier becoming a big target that says "SHOOT ME!" to the UNSC's orbital assets?
Ringleader: but that was kind of.. forerunner tech, also youll notice that if it was a teleporter, then they would have been able to use the grav lift base as a reviever, making the whole, flying up and down step completely uselss
Ringleader: also, youull notice that phantoms dont even need a teleporter, they just grav lift stuff down
Ringleader: multiply teleportation spires? hmm, maybe we could equate that to like, multiple ACs landing on the planet and dropping millions of troops all at once
Ringleader: but with guns
Ringleader: again, trying to rationalize reach = poop
Ringleader: the orbital assets were gone, thats why they didnt shoot the corvette over sword base
Ringleader: rationalize reach = not going to sucesd
Rasq'uire'laskar: Flying up-and-down might be neccessary if the Covenant need some sort of physical connection between the teleporters.
Phantoms wouldn't NEED teleportation since they have exactly 1 troop bay, and they might not be big enough to mount a system.
Rasq'uire'laskar: No, the Corvette WAS shot down with orbital assets.
Rasq'uire'laskar: It was just too close to Sword base.
Ringleader: so, would the covie troops need to fly through space to get to the shield spires!?
Rasq'uire'laskar: You really weren't paying attention during the game, were you?
Ringleader: well, its just that the story made no goddamn sense
Ringleader: shield spires?
Ringleader: SUPER DE DOOPER CARRIERS?!
Rasq'uire'laskar: Considering that the Supercarrier is 10x bigger than an assault carrier, I'm willing to cut it more slack.
Ringleader: cut it MORE slack?
Ringleader: wtf?
Ringleader: cut it NO SLACK
Ringleader: it makes no sense
Ringleader: I mean, why would it have to LOOK like an assult carrier?
Ringleader: I mean, maybe it just was an assult carrier, and they wanted it to look bigger for the cameras in that one cutscene
Rasq'uire'laskar: Why shouldn't it? I mean, I'd prefer a different model, but why shouldn't it?
Ringleader: I mean, it just doesnt make any sense!
Ringleader: why not send hundreds of ships and thousands of dropships down! to the planet!
Rasq'uire'laskar: Becaus this way is faster and doesn't expose troops to AA?
Ringleader: I mean, this one super assault carrier coulnt have housed more troops then 300 covie ships, nor would it be a safer means of doing so
Ringleader: but bringing shield towers down on corvetes do?
Ringleader: OHHH, but the corvettes are cloaked of course
Rasq'uire'laskar: Or maybe because it allows for faster deployment over an area of 500+ kilometers?
Ringleader: but the, why not send down thousands of cloaked ships that could carry thier own damn troops!
Ringleader: no it doesnt!
Rasq'uire'laskar: Yes, it does.
Ringleader: they could have brought 1000 ships cloaked over each city
Rasq'uire'laskar: Instantaneous deployment, instantaneous recall and re-deployment.
Ringleader: like, within mins, way faster then setting up a shield tower..
Rasq'uire'laskar: Deployment takes longer than that, Ringleader.
Ringleader: how is it instantaneous recall? wouldnt they have to go back to the static shield tower to be rebeamed up the the assualt ship? and then they could only be beamed to another shield tower, which also cant move, like a ship could
Ringleader: a ship could like, fly over the troops and pic them up, then fly anywher eelse
Ringleader: also, they can shoot guns
Ringleader: and like, support the troops
Ringleader: hey, sound familiar?
Ringleader: just like in taht one book that was retconned up the arse
Ringleader: by reach's technical and logical fallicies
Rasq'uire'laskar: Hey, I'm just pointing this stuff out, okay?
Rasq'uire'laskar: It's not like I want it in the mod.
Ringleader: pointing WHAT out? it doesnt make any sense!
Ringleader: oh, thank god
Ringleader: I thought you were serious about this
Rasq'uire'laskar: It makes tons of sense, Ringleader.
Ringleader: tons of b$
Ringleader: metric tons of bs$
Rasq'uire'laskar: You're just a little child who has this egg-fragile conception of Halo.
Rasq'uire'laskar: What Halo is.
Rasq'uire'laskar: What Halo should be.
Rasq'uire'laskar: And it hasn't touched base with what Halo is sincce Halo: CE.
Ringleader: erm, no, your just a guy that says "but they have instant recall abilities, like a power up!", like your trying to ratioanlize the logistical loopholes by assigning the certain nonsense packet with some militant terms like 'redeployment' but.. its a static tower, that cant move, that cant shoot anything, that cant escape, that that cant do anything except be blown up, wheras a a ship can do everything and more when it comes to invading a planet
Rasq'uire'laskar: Except deploy troops 500km away to counter a UNSC counterattack.
Ringleader: and your trying to ratinalize the super assault carrier which can be equated to a death star doomday device by trying to say if it stands back, then it cant get blown up, even though its like, right next to the planet, but one ship would only make it vuelnerable troops
Ringleader: why, cant ships do that?
Ringleader: ships can move everwhere within seconds, and the troops brought by TOWERS could only be redeployed if there is another tower where they need to go?
Ringleader: so, are there like, millions of towers spaced evenly across the planet?
Rasq'uire'laskar: That's called "Forward planning."
Ringleader: so, there must have been millions of corvettes too, to drop them down right?
Rasq'uire'laskar: You could do it with a hundred.
Ringleader: so im sure a million corvetes would have been more then enough to completely rape the planetary defenses of reach
Ringleader: thats like one corvette for every 7 men women and children
Ringleader: 100 platforms?
Rasq'uire'laskar: Yes...
Ringleader: what, spaced 100s of km apart?
Ringleader: so these troops would have to march 100s of km like the trade federation armies in Episode 1
Ringleader: when the landing should could have landed right in the cities, if they had this magical cloaking ability described in reach
Rasq'uire'laskar: You'd only space them out evenly if you're defending against smuggling, Ringleader.
Ringleader: oh, smuggling... of course
Ringleader: how could I not have taken smuggling into accoun
Ringleader: like, the evac ships were in the cities right?
Ringleader: thats what the game showed
<This user is now playing Solitaire>
Ringleader: so, who the hells gonna evac, if these ships cloister and clutter around every major pop center on the planet?
Ringleader: I mean, the ships are gonna get shot down in a milisecond if tehy try to escape rasq
Ringleader: unless there are magic evac zones in the middle of nowhere that vast amounts of the population would somehow be able to get to in a moments notice
Ringleader: but, then Im sure the covenant would have been able to uncloak anywhere
Ringleader: and render any sort of counter attack virtually moot
Ringleader: because reach logic, blew other logic, out of the water
Rasq'uire'laskar: I'm not sure... what this has to do with whatever we were discussing.
Ringleader: I mean, what if they uncloacked right behind the smac guns, and just burned them up?
Ringleader: then cloaked again, then uncloaked right above the cities and evac zones? and just starting launching volly after volly of plasma torpedo at every standing structure on the planet?
Ringleader: what would stop them?
Ringleader: it has everything to do with what we were discussing
Ringleader: telepads, and cloaked ships bringing them down were all in teh same basket
Ringleader: Reach was the name of that basket, and it had quite a few holes in the bottom
Rasq'uire'laskar: Maybe the fact that their cloaking technology, like the cloaking technology on the Elites, works best at a distance?
Ringleader: even so, we know they woulnt have to get right next to the targets to start bombing them back to the stone age with plasma
Ringleader: I mean like, what if they got 10,000km distant, thats well within the weapon ranges described in the books, and yet plenty afar to not be seen by the naked eye against the blackness of space
Ringleader: besides they could drop out of slipspace anywhere too, I mean, GOING to slipspace in a city pretty much destroyed it
Ringleader: as well as the orbital elevator
Rasq'uire'laskar: ...
Ringleader: but like, shiled towers, super carriers, its alll a bunch of crap
Rasq'uire'laskar: You do remember that they didn't know HOW to enters slipspace in a gravity well until First Strike, right?
Ringleader: I would have to reread it
Ringleader: but thats a good thing
Rasq'uire'laskar: Yeah.
Ringleader: because it restricts thier tactics to A. landing troops using impractical, static shield towers, that cant do anything, from one singular super carrier, and B, land thier troops using highly mobile ships with guns and stronger shields on them that can pick them up after a hard day of fighting or to move them where they need to go.
Ringleader: lets see, they went with plan B in Halo 2
Ringleader: with the AC grav lifting troops and scarabs and stuff
Ringleader: thats why it had such a huge hanger
Ringleader: but shield towers will sell more copies of the game, so what would you do?
Ringleader: I know what I would do, sell this game to as many people as possible, even if thier knowledge of halo is not fully developed
Ringleader: also a death star like super assualt carrier would be cooler
Ringleader: because its bigger
Ringleader: and bigger - sense = cooler
Ringleader: AND, the super ship needs to look like an AC for some reason, reason bieng, I dont really know
Ringleader: I wonder why we didnt fight 100 foot elites
Ringleader: it would have been so EPIC
Rasq'uire'laskar: 1:The towers had heavy shields, shields that had to be taken down before Frigates could enage them, which is more than we can say for Corvettes.
2: Carriers and warships STILL take time to move, where teleportation is instantaneous if you set the towers up right.
Ringleader: a static shiield tower is apparently more exiting and interesting then a mobile ship that can move and blow stuff up
Rasq'uire'laskar: 3: Teleportation towers are not going to sell more copies than a ship, despite what your ego tells you.
Ringleader: but, the corvettes used cloaks to slip past the UNSC defenses right?
Ringleader: like, thats how they dropped the towers
Rasq'uire'laskar: Corvettes can't cloak, Ringleader.
Rasq'uire'laskar: We didn't see them do it in-game.
<This user stopped playing Solitaire>
Ringleader: im assuming it took a while to set up the towers too, and they also had the towers cloaked too? so why can the SC cloak?
Ringleader: then how the heck did they slip past the UNSC defenses?
Ringleader: carrying bulky and impractical towers below them?
Ringleader: lets see, 20 smac guns + 150 unsc warships = corvettes dangling shield towers landing on the planet for some reason
Ringleader: you know what would have been cool? not this story
Ringleader: hey, what about the TFOR story? that was pretty cool right?
Ringleader: I mean, it was cool just reading it, but playing it would have been a lot better then static shield towers
Rasq'uire'laskar: 1: The SC might have had cloaking available since it was so big. If the Corvettes were close enough to get inside the SC's cloaking field, that might have worked.
2: There were CLOAKING TOWERS that masked the energy signatures of whatever was in their field. That's what kept the whole Covenant occupation from beign spotted.
Ringleader: that cant do anything
Ringleader: OH, so how about this, when the covenant eventually start glassing the planet, do they leave the towers there?
Rasq'uire'laskar: I don't know.
Rasq'uire'laskar: When the Covenant planned to start glassing New Mombassa, would they have taken the mortars with them?
Ringleader: I mean, a lot of the corvettes had to have been destroyed in the fruitless attack of landing towers there, so what would bring them back into space?
Ringleader: did they slipspace into the Eridanus system with these towers hanging from them?
Rasq'uire'laskar: Give it a rest, Ringleader. The towers weren't THAT big.
Ringleader: but the thing is, Im sure a mortar can be carried in peices by a phantom or fit within the grav bay of an AC
Rasq'uire'laskar: As could the towers.
Ringleader: so, what are the things the towers can do that a ship cant do better?
Ringleader: besides nothing?
Rasq'uire'laskar: Teleport troops instantly? Provide a shield that tactical weaponry can't pierce, protecting the ground troops from artillery and missiles?
Ringleader: teleport troops instantly where? right next to them? thats not really an advantage over bieng grav dropped by a heavily armed ship
Rasq'uire'laskar: Yeah, it is.
Ringleader: but, the thing is, these towers were set in the middle of freaking nowwhere, thats why the troops were so vuelnerable, if a ship had simply dropped the troops in the city
Rasq'uire'laskar: Because a ship actually has to spend time moving there.
Ringleader: Im sure it would have been better, because thats what they actualyl did in the other games
Rasq'uire'laskar: In the other games.
Rasq'uire'laskar: When they didn't have nearly as much time to prepare.
Ringleader: yeah, but, so does a tower, it takes time for them to be landed by the corvettes
Rasq'uire'laskar: Of course! WHAT WAS I THINKING?!
Ringleader: probably slower then any other ship not dragging a heavy tower
Rasq'uire'laskar: These towers weren't nearly as big and heavy as you make them out to be, Ringleader.
Ringleader: ok, but the thing is, it didnt make sense in reach, wheras in the other games it did, because what if reach made the deployment time even shorter, like 4 seconds? then it would be the most uber EPIC method of deployment ever because they invented some b$ to cover thier failings
Ringleader: why did they have less time to prepare in the other games? lol, where are you making this stuff up from?
Ringleader: for crying out loud
Rasq'uire'laskar: From the books and the games, Ringleader.
Rasq'uire'laskar: The Covenant were surprised to find Humanity on Earth, remember?
Ringleader: the books made it clear that they didnt
Ringleader: the games sort of, retconned that, but still
Rasq'uire'laskar: The games never retconned it.
Ringleader: wait, I have to draw a diagram to show you that towers are not a faster means of deployment then ships
Ringleader: because you cant seem to understand it
Ringleader: the time it takes for the towers to be deployed + the time it takes for the troops to beam down and mobalize >= the time it takes for a ship to land and drop hundreds of troops anywher eon the planet
Rasq'uire'laskar: I'm going to go do something productive, RIngleader.
Rasq'uire'laskar: By.
Rasq'uire'laskar: *Bye.
<This user is now offline>
additionally the time it takes for the ship to simply fly over the troops and tanks, and pick them up after they march into wherever (close by)<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< The time it takes for the troops to move all the way back to these shield towers in the middle of the desert and be beamed to another tower also in the middle of the desert + the time it takes them to march all the way into another city from the destert.

Trivia question: when I ask a trivia question, it's supposed to be like a known fact, that everyone else could possibly know and not one of my own personal, far fetched theories, correct?

Answer: Yes....

by Ascendant Justice Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:52 am

tl;dr version please?

by **Kasrkin Seath** Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:07 am

Having not played Reach, I can't really say I know alot about the focus of the argument. However, from an outside view, Rasq's points and ideas do make sense, even if some are a bit sketchy. For example, why use teleporters instead of ships? Ships are definitely have greater versatility and mobility, but as stated, are making themselves easy targets by taking part in troop movements from one ground location to the next. If the covenant does in fact have teleporter technology, it would make sense for them to use it.

Now some comments on the argument and how this was presented...

Next time you try to bring an argument like this to the forums, at least TRY to be a little more civil and respectful of your opponent. I think roughly 50% of the time I have seen an argument between you and someone else, including this particular argument, you act in a condescending manner. The topic title itself is bashing Rasq' for his point of view. It's as if you are convinced of your own superiority and assume that you are always correct when it comes to these things.

Furthermore, you never fail to make an ass of yourself in discussions like these. Hell, thats barely even a two way discussion, more like Rasq' giving a logical explanation for something, and then you attempting to destroy it in a fit of rage since it doesn't fit 'your ideas' of what it should be. You didn't really seem to even consider Rasq's ideas, you just swung at them. Really, both of you sound right in one way or another, but after reading that entire thing I am inclined to side with Rasq'. Sure, he may have attacked you with his comments about your 'ego' partway through(which I have to agree with him on, fyi), but that response seems justified considering how you acted.

I would suggest that you change the title of the thread, lose the 'tone' you bring to most of your arguments, and restructure how your argument is presented. Maybe change it to a format where you use paragraphs and have a logical order and presentation to your points, whilst giving note to the opposition(the point of a discussion is to show why one thing is right over another afterall). You might get some real feedback on the issue then, unless thats not what you wanted and you do just want to bash Rasq'.

by Ringleader Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:43 am

Basically, Rasq thinks the whole 'bringing teleporter receiver platform shield spires to certain areas of Reach and having troops beam from the one Ultra Epic AC to the static an unarmed receiver pads so they can march many a km to reach their targets then march all the way back to be beamed either back to the Mega Uber AC or to another telepad so they can march many a km to another target" is a better and faster strategy to having heavily armed ships fly right over the cities and land thousands of troops right where they need to go and then having the dropships and capital ships shoot plasma fire all over the place and then have them pick up the troops and vehicles wherever they are so they don't have to march into cities and out of cities.

Because the corvettes dangling the tele-spires are apparently immune/less vulnerable to AA, at least over dropships and larger capital ships unloading millions of troops right inside the city limits.

Rasq'uire'laskar: Becaus this way is faster and doesn't expose troops to AA?

How is it:

A. Faster?

B. Less exposed to AA?

Are shielded Assault carriers and CCSs really that vulnerable to tiny ground based AA guns? Would the troops be exposed to AA fire when inside of a city? More so then over open desert terrain?

Next time you try to bring an argument like this to the forums, at least TRY to be a little more civil and respectful of your opponent. I think roughly 50% of the time I have seen an argument between you and someone else, including this particular argument, you act in a condescending manner. The topic title itself is bashing Rasq' for his point of view. It's as if you are convinced of your own superiority and assume that you are always correct when it comes to these things.

You know what else is? presenting your theory like it's some well known fact, like:

Rasq'uire'laskar: Trivia question: On which level and game did the Covenant demonstrate teleportation technology?

by **Vigil** Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:30 am

I would suggest that you change the title of the thread, lose the 'tone' you bring to most of your arguments, and restructure how your argument is presented. Maybe change it to a format where you use paragraphs and have a logical order and presentation to your points, whilst giving note to the opposition(the point of a discussion is to show why one thing is right over another afterall). You might get some real feedback on the issue then, unless thats not what you wanted and you do just want to bash Rasq'.

by Rasq'uire'laskar Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:53 am

This is is priceless, Ringleader. Five minutes after I exited out of that conversation, I hit upon the idea of posting my reasoning IN FULL inside the debate section, and then this xFire conversation. Get revenge for your 100 foot ho's. But this? You just saved me a whole metric crapload of trouble. You went ahead and made yourself look like the idiot here.

And you know what? That's even better.
I could post the discussion we had the other day about Covenant using long-range weapons, but that would be redundant.

As for Covenant Teleportation:

There's numerous teleporters in science fiction, all using a common name but having different traits.
-Point to Point: A teleportation endpoint that relies on a fixed device to transmit an object and a fixed device to receive it. May or may not require a physical linkage. An example would be the stepping plates seen in Onyx.
-Point to Anywhere: a teleportation endpoint is required, but it can either take something from anywhere and beam it to the device, beam it from the device to anywhere, or both. In this category, we have the Star Trek teleporters.
-Anywhere to Anywhere: Some sort of system allows transit from anywhere on a battlestation/planet/moon to anywhere, such as the teleportation system used by 343 Guilty Spark, Cortana, and Gravemind to cut the Chief's Frequent Flier Miles.

My argument is that the teleporters of Reach are of a PtP system that doesn't require physical linkage, and may be more technical, hence its mounting on a Supercarrier. The teleportation spires can be carried down in PIECES on a Corvette (I mean, come ON! The upper part of a teleportation spire could fit in a Covenant Corvette's hangar, and it's got plenty of room for the base between those rails) and set up in defensive positions around Covenant dig sites. This frees up ships to assault the rest of Reach, while the Supercarrier unloads troops through the teleportation spires.

Ringleader's point about the spires being defenseless ignores the fact that those towers had shields around them that you had to take down before the frigates could MAC the tower, as well as anti-aircraft cannon.

As for the teleportation system I hypothesize might be on the Truth and Reconciliation, a smaller system that might operate on different principles might beam the cargo/troops from multiple holds into the gravity lift beam. This would actually let the Covenant unload the bays faster without having to drag everything through those corridors.
When playing the level "Truth and Reconciliation", note that everything fades to white before you hit the top of the gravity lift, and when you can see again, you're in a cargo bay. Yes, this is mainly a transition to cover up a map change, but whose to say that game mechanics CAN'T bleed over into story?

In short, I had stuff to back up my theory, and I would have presented it all had Ringleader given me a chance. But I think Ringleader's whole argument can be boiled down to

Ringleader wrote:
Ringleader: no, you may not explain why it makes sense, because nothing about what you suggested makes sense

And

Ringleader wrote:
Ringleader: stop trying to rationalize reach, you will be sadly unsuccesful

by Ringleader Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:06 pm

Furthermore, you never fail to make an ass of yourself in discussions like these. Hell, thats barely even a two way discussion, more like Rasq' giving a logical explanation for something, and then you attempting to destroy it in a fit of rage since it doesn't fit 'your ideas' of what it should be. You didn't really seem to even consider Rasq's ideas, you just swung at them. Really, both of you sound right in one way or another, but after reading that entire thing I am inclined to side with Rasq'. Sure, he may have attacked you with his comments about your 'ego' partway through(which I have to agree with him on, fyi), but that response seems justified considering how you acted.

But I did consider everything Rasq said before I refuted it with in game/canonical instances of why it cannot be true or logical. You say his explanation is logical, so what exactly was logical about it?

Here's a diagram of both attack plans:

Telepads vs Landing pads, an assault on reason Wrongsq2

Telepads vs Landing pads, an assault on reason Wrongsq2

Maybe it's not a two way discussion because what he was suggesting was really really out there, and what I was suggesting used instances found in game, and plain ol' reason to defend my points, and not theories sold as fact that I would somehow expect you to know. That doesn't mean the debate wasn't balanced, it just means the evidence supports one side more strongly. Maybe because Reach is the last Halo game made by Bungie, and it's their swan song to Halo, then whatever they retconned automatically becomes canon, no matter how much it doesn't really work in game or make sense logically. I'm afraid I can't support that notion.

If he were defending a similar instance found in Halo Wars, would his efforts be met with such consideration? So your inclined to side with Rasq because I was being a big meany? Well, Ok then, I mean, he disconnected on me, if that's not considered being a big meany. Also, even if I were being a complete and total asshole, I really don't see how that makes me any more or less right. How right I am depends on how strong my argument is and how well it fits within the game universe, I'm brazen in my delivery because I am passionate about about Bungie not retconning their own masterpieces to sell the game with a newer and edgier finish, and things not making sense being wrong.

See, his attack on my ego really doesn't mean anything to me, nor does it change the outcome of this debate regarding Covenant attack styles. Was his attack on my ego his rebuttal? My assault on his logic was my rebuttal. And, believe it or not, but in Halo 4, we will be fighting 100 foot covenant hos because if Reach has taught us anything, it's ok that something is bigger and nonsensical, because it's more epic that way.

by Rasq'uire'laskar Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:10 pm

Be back in a couple of hours, but in the meantime...

Holy crap, you drew that up in <1 hour?

by Ringleader Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:35 pm

This is is priceless, Ringleader. Five minutes after I exited out of that conversation, I hit upon the idea of posting my reasoning IN FULL inside the debate section, and then this xFire conversation. Get revenge for your 100 foot ho's. But this? You just saved me a whole metric crapload of trouble. You went ahead and made yourself look like the idiot here.

I made myself look like an idiot here? Ohh, gee, I promise next time, I'll make up a theory, sell it as fact, and expect you to believe it, then come across less then convincingly so I appear to be the underdog. Everyone loves the underdog.

I went about doing so in a mean way, so I must be wrong.

And you know what? That's even better.
I could post the discussion we had the other day about Covenant using long-range weapons, but that would be redundant.

No go right ahead, I mean I lose by default because I came across strongly (maybe because I raised better points?), but I would be interested in everyones take on the matter.

As for Covenant Teleportation:

There's numerous teleporters in science fiction, all using a common name but having different traits.

So, it must also exist in Halo, another sci fi universe, even though it was clear that they tried to break the mold and do something unique with gravity lifts. It's ok if they retcon their own material, so long as they do in in a profitable manner and convince people it made sense all along within the universe.

-Point to Point: A teleportation endpoint that relies on a fixed device to transmit an object and a fixed device to receive it. May or may not require a physical linkage. An example would be the stepping plates seen in Onyx.

Yeah

-Point to Anywhere: a teleportation endpoint is required, but it can either take something from anywhere and beam it to the device, beam it from the device to anywhere, or both. In this category, we have the Star Trek teleporters.

Yeah

-Anywhere to Anywhere: Some sort of system allows transit from anywhere on a battlestation/planet/moon to anywhere, such as the teleportation system used by 343 Guilty Spark, Cortana, and Gravemind to cut the Chief's Frequent Flier Miles.

Yeah

Actually it was just a story device that was implemented to make the game better which it did, and was later explained in the books as being distant forerunner tech. If you were trying to rationalize it's usage as anything but a plot device, you would also have to explain why 343 GS didn't teleport him right in front of the index.

My argument is that the teleporters of Reach are of a PtP system that doesn't require physical linkage, and may be more technical, hence its mounting on a Supercarrier.

That's really not your argument, thats the unfourtunatle factuality of the game. Your argument was that it, made sense I think? And how it was really working in the other games all along!

The teleportation spires can be carried down in PIECES on a Corvette (I mean, come ON! The upper part of a teleportation spire could fit in a Covenant Corvette's hangar, and it's got plenty of room for the base between those rails) and set up in defensive positions around Covenant dig sites. This frees up ships to assault the rest of Reach, while the Supercarrier unloads troops through the teleportation spires.

You know what else can fit inside of a corvette hanger bay? Thousands of troops and not a Teletower. Assault the rest of Reach? Were the covenant going to use their capital ships to blow up farm land and small settlements at this point in the invasion? You see, where the ships needed to be, and where the troops needed to be were in the same areas, cities, all of them.

So they needed to start an archeological dig during an ongoing invasion? That sounds pretty stupid and really dangerous for those archeologists. I mean, the one thing that did make sense of what you said was the AA gun defending the shield tower, but then it's not like the frigate needed to be that close to shoot its mac gun at the Spire, nor did it need to be close to shoot the missiles and guns at it, that it never shot for some reason. ICMBS anyone? Even still, I don't think this AA gun would have been able to shoot down missiles going mach 17, at least not hundreds of them streaming towards the same mark.

The way your explaining your argument it's like a plan B alternative if the first plan wouldn't work for some reason, but the thing is, the books made it clear plan A would have worked, and there wasn't really a need for some elaborate side invasion or to split up the ships and troops at any point.

-Ok, so here's the plan, were going to enter the Eridanus system with a large fleet of capital ships, allocate a large portion of them on a one way trip to fly down to launch as many dropships as possible at the polar region, bypassing their defenses as they fly down to the equatorial regions and SMAC generators, while the few covenant ships that managed to break through the line and deploy these dropships can either go on a rampage and shoot down as many things as they can before getting blown up by the still active SMAC guns and defenses OR, fly right over the cities and begin to besiege them knowing the UNSC wouldn't risk shooting at them while all the civilians hadn't evacuated. Then, when the SMAC generators have been neutralized, we can send in the cavalry to bolster the invasion, how does that sound?

-Oh, but that can't work

-Well, why not?

-Because it's not Uber Epic enough to sell to enough people to make enough money.

-Ah, I see, well then, Plan B: We make the Covenant use one single ship to deploy all the troops by using smaller ships to deploy teleporter platforms, so that the larger ship can teleport the troops down to the static telepads without the risk of being shot down by the defenses that managed not to shoot down the smaller ships that were able to successfully deploy the telepads.

-It's so crazy it might just work! Then again, it might fail horribly at any point when one of these specific things don't go according to plan, such as the super ships getting slipspace bombed by the same Spartan that managed to deactivate one of the telepad's shields so that it can get blown up without shields, (which was kind of pointless, as there were other teleshield towers RIGHT NEXT to the one you got destroyed!), but we can sell it to lots of people, so let's roll with it.

Ringleader's point about the spires being defenseless ignores the fact that those towers had shields around them that you had to take down before the frigates could MAC the tower, as well as anti-aircraft cannon.

Frigates are incapable of shooting it because it's shields are still up. Hey maybe if they just shot them with Mac rounds and archer missiles and nukes repeatedly, it might actually do something. How effective can this shield really be if a it allows a slow moving aircraft to fly inside without much trouble? At the very least, irradiating and demolishing the area around this impervious Gungan shield bubble would confine the 1,000 or so troops to the bubble, and they would eventually have to leave or starve to death.

This is my 'rationalize the events game" explanation, I hope we all no there's no point in doing that because everything pretty much hinges on what could be made into a good gameplay experience.

The thing is, EVERYTHING can be made into good gameplay, and we should expect enough from Bungie to come out with something a little better then 'super 'ships' and 'teleplatforms' doomsday super weapon, i.e. Slipspace bomb, I know I, at one point, expected as much of them not to retcon what is already a good story for another, more UBER EPIC story that could be equally entrenchant, gameplay-wise, I no longer expect this of them.

Even the Slipspace bomb logically contradicted the established canon, remember when the UNSC would send stealthed nukes to covenant space via slipspace? They would get shot down, but if the slipspace core itself was already a weapon 1000 times more powerful then the nuke... then why have a nuke?

The problem is that we don't ask ourselves those kinds of questions, so we can expect to fight 100 foot tall elites in Halo 4, they're even more epic then super ships and teleplatforms.

As for the teleportation system I hypothesize might be on the Truth and Reconciliation, a smaller system that might operate on different principles might beam the cargo/troops from multiple holds into the gravity lift beam.

Ok, so, I get that's how you think it MIGHT work, but how exactly is this theory backed up? Besides other theories you've made to support it?

You see, my theory, of gravity lifts being gravity lifts and not some elaborate teleporter medium is supported by the fact that you see a hole in the bottom of phantoms that troops physically jump through into the grav beam.

This would actually let the Covenant unload the bays faster without having to drag everything through those corridors.

Again, you really can't know this without the schematic of a covenant ship, also the room at the beginning of the T&R level is huge, with tanks and stuff in it, and it also has like, 10 or so doors, so I don't think there's much congestion when it comes to staging troops for an attack, and one of those doors leads to a hanger like area filled with wraiths, so... why have an unnecessary hallway leading from one telesender to another telesender room? The answer is because they aren't telesending rooms, there's one grav lift bay that all ground units can get to via corridors.

Then in that Reach ad when the previous Noble 6 threw the bomb that had a 10 second timer (allowing him ample time to escape the blast radius), the Bay is apparently much bigger now, lending credence to there being one room, and no need to beam separate roomfuls of troops scattered throughout the ship to one gravity lift beam.

When playing the level "Truth and Reconciliation", note that everything fades to white before you hit the top of the gravity lift, and when you can see again, you're in a cargo bay. Yes, this is mainly a transition to cover up a map change,

Yeah, I noticed, same happens with a Phantom, but we see it's physically a hole on the bottom of the ship with a gravity beam extending down. Who says one instance in game can't bleed into another in which the uncanny similarities would not make it far fetched? Rasq. So the story is more suited to bleed into the mechanics then another instance of the mechanics telling a different story then?

but whose to say that game mechanics CAN'T bleed over into story?

Erm, not I? maybe you should have rephrased that as: "whose to say that game mechanics CAN'T bleed over into story only when it supports my hypothesis?"

In short, I had stuff to back up my theory, and I would have presented it all had Ringleader given me a chance. But I think Ringleader's whole argument can be boiled down to

Ringleader wrote:
Ringleader: no, you may not explain why it makes sense, because nothing about what you suggested makes sense
And
Ringleader wrote:
Ringleader: stop trying to rationalize reach, you will be sadly unsuccesful

Well, let's just entertain that though shall we?

Your points were:

-The interior of the T&R level didn't match up with the externals.

-The covenant used telepads in conjunction with a super carrier to teleport down thousands of troops to fixed positions on reach because it was tactically a more sound and faster alternative to what occurred in the unedited TFOR novel.

Your first point is fact, but, the same can be said with any ship or structure in Halo CE, I mean, the PoA dorsal trench is like, multiple times longer then the entire ship! I really don't think the devs really considered making it so that 10 years later, it would make sense when we had access to the in game materials at the expense of the playability of the game and the resources available at the time.

Your second point, which right now is what your entire argument is riding on as your first point really didn't hold much water, is really just an opinion of how things SHOULD work. How exactly do you know it is a faster means of invading a planet? I thought I really did a good job explain how the disadvantages of this system far outweigh the non benefits, starting with out these pads cant move, cant shoot, and are ultimately affixed to one point that would make them a major target (which the UNSC ships and ground units didn't think to shoot at because Reach logic), and ending with how these pads: a. cannot move, b. cannot really do anything except teleport troops down from one ship, and c. have no weapons to defend itself or the troops around it if it get attacked, except a bubble shield that ultimately confined the troops to a small area around the base of the spire.

Maybe that was the Covenant's grand scheme, conquer tiny disjointed areas of the planet, and nothing else.

You see, the major differences is that I use in game instances to derive and support my opinions and points, not vice versa. I brought up gravity lifts, because thats kinda what they've been using since the very beginning, with the T&R, and later with the Phantoms and Assault Carriers, and you could in fact see the bottom of the Phantom open when units drop down, so it's a hole, not a teleporter. You had theories to back up other theories and then expect me to act like you've presented me some accredited source.

by **BBJynne** Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:49 pm

I thought this thread was gonna be about the concepts of telepads and landing pads and which would be better in theory or something like that, not just.... this.

by PiEdude Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:57 pm

This should either be in the Debate section or the Colosseum.

by Ringleader Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:04 pm

Well BB, Teleportation would of course be better in concept and practicality then gravity lifting, but that doesn't mean the Covenant SHOULD have it, nor does it mean it makes sense within the halo universe for them to use it in the way they did in Halo Reach if they did have it.

by **Vigil** Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:35 pm

This thread depresses me.

by KristallNacht Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:14 pm

tl;dr

but from what I saw, RL makes more convincing points. It's entirely impractical for them to use the teleportation spires, especially considering all the information we have on covenant assault tactics throughout the canon.

1. They don't have them.
2. The purpose of the spires was undetected deployments, which is COMPLETELY against Covenant Engagement Doctrine. Why would the baddest group of motherfuckers in the galaxy need to hide away?

by **BBJynne** Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:51 pm

KristallNacht wrote:2. The purpose of the spires was undetected deployments, which is COMPLETELY against Covenant Engagement Doctrine. Why would the baddest group of motherfuckers in the galaxy need to hide away?

It's not like the routinely use active camo on their soldiers and vehicles or anything...

Oh wait

by Ringleader Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:06 pm

KristallNacht wrote:tl;dr

but from what I saw, RL makes more convincing points. It's entirely impractical for them to use the teleportation spires, especially considering all the information we have on covenant assault tactics throughout the canon.

1. They don't have them.
2. The purpose of the spires was undetected deployments, which is COMPLETELY against Covenant Engagement Doctrine. Why would the baddest group of motherfuckers in the galaxy need to hide away?

Exactly, the Covenant are like the Klingons of the Halo unvierse, which is why they use plasma swords, and largely short ranged weapons and not sniper rifles. I'm sure the Elites would be foaming at the mouth to be the first to touch down on Reach to kill as many humans as possible before dying gloriously in battle.

Then in the later games, they apparently use long range weapons for some reason, because the Devs thought the Covenant needed alien versions of the human weapons and vehicles because Halo 1 wasn't EPIC enough. Because the aliens need to be alien humans and not aliens.

And with that, Rasq, go right on and post the Covenant Ranged Weapon debate.

by KristallNacht Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:20 am

BBJynne wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:2. The purpose of the spires was undetected deployments, which is COMPLETELY against Covenant Engagement Doctrine. Why would the baddest group of motherfuckers in the galaxy need to hide away?

It's not like the routinely use active camo on their soldiers and vehicles or anything...

Oh wait

except when do we see active camo on elites? infiltration teams dealing with artifacts. No vehicles have ever been active camo'd and the only time anything was hidden at all was during reach.

by **Angatar** Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:58 pm

The Covenant used camo on the Pillar of Autumn, and that's not an artifact. Also, in TFoR the Covenant ordered their ships so that they would appear to be asteroids, basically camoflauge.

by Ringleader Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:23 pm

Angatar wrote:The Covenant used camo on the Pillar of Autumn, and that's not an artifact. Also, in TFoR the Covenant ordered their ships so that they would appear to be asteroids, basically camoflauge.

Actually, no, they used Osoona's as the Prophet's eyes an ears, but it's clear the elites didn't like doing such an honorless task. They tried to capture Captain Keyes and ultimately they did. I can't quite recall if they were also going after Cortana, but they were looking to capture Keyes alive, something best done when Keyes wouldn't get himself killed or kill himself if he knew he was about to get captured by space aliens.

The Covenant fleets always appear to mass-slipspace wherever they go, probably from a station similar to High Charity or the UH, the point being they're always clustered when they jump anywhere. Them appearing as a an asteroid or a comet within the slipspace dimension by the UNSC listening posts is just a side effect and probably not something they could foresee. I think when they zoomed in on the comet shaped fleet, they could make out some of the extrusions as the profiles of known Covenant ships, so they weren't really hiding it. I guess the alternative to the ships jumping together is if they spread out and arrived at equadistant points around the planet so they would get blown up faster. I'm sure whichever Shimpaster ordered that attack would get an earful from the prophet of reasoning and logic.

by Ringleader Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:55 pm

Rasq, please post your rebuttal here now, so we can get the Halo Remake thread going. If an argument isn't balanced in terms of the abundance of evidence favoring one side over the other, then the argument is mean.

Mean =/= Logical.

by Rasq'uire'laskar Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:49 pm

Ringleader wrote:Rasq, please post your rebuttal here now, so we can get the Halo Remake thread going. If an argument isn't balanced in terms of the abundance of evidence favoring one side over the other, then the argument is mean.

Mean =/= Logical.

You know what?
It's going to come. But it's not going to be a point by point rebuttal, hein? Just gotta get stuff typed up, gotta...

by Rasq'uire'laskar Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:24 pm

Ringleader wrote:I made myself look like an idiot here? Ohh, gee, I promise next time, I'll make up a theory, sell it as fact, and expect you to believe it, then come across less then convincingly so I appear to be the underdog. Everyone loves the underdog.

I went about doing so in a mean way, so I must be wrong.

Ringleader, I was wrong to use terms that suggested that my theory was fact. But look around you. You are not doing yourself any favors with your condescending attitude. So why continue to post like that?

Now for my points
Teleporters
-Saying that the gravity lifts are 'original' is not true. The concept dates back to the old UFO movies/cartoons, where a UFO would beam a light at something and pull it up. They're more commonly known now as tractor beams. Don't know where a teleportation/tractor beam has been used before, so I guess that's rather original.
-The teleportation is a canonical part of the Haloverse, Ringleader, regardless of its use as plot grease. The Forerunner had it, and the Covenant would probably have had access to it. That is not certain proof that they would have teleporation technology, but it's a good indicator.
And 343 Guilty Spark may not have teleported the Chief directly to the index because of protocol or how the teleportation system was set up.. The security and doors inside the Library were intended to keep Flood out and only let in a Reclaimer. It didn't work very well, but that's really the nature of the Flood, isn't it?
Teleportation outward from the Index storage makes sense, as whatever has gotten there in the first place would have passed or destroyed the security on its way in. Forcing it to walk back through potentially Flood-Infested checkpoints is redundant.
-Yeah, the Phantoms (and the Spirits in Halo Wars >.<) had gravity lifts without a teleporter. For all we know, cruisers might have a more technical system because they have multiple cargo holds.
-The assertion that we can't know if a Covenant ship uses teleportation unless we've seen the schematics ignores the fact that we HAVE seen the floor layout. Multiple cargo rooms with gravity lift/teleporation plates, and only one gravity lift outside backs up the teleportation theory.
-There's multiple cargo rooms around a single gravity lift room. This is probably for structural reasons. Still, a teleportation system solves the problem of hauling equipment from one side of the ship to another.
-

Miscellanea
-Despite the fact that the Frigates could have pounded the shields on the teleportation towers with MACs, the fact that they had you shut them down suggests that they tried, and the shields held. As for nukes and such, assuming they got past the AA turrets, a military commander is probably more willing to spend them against a Corvette menacing an armored column than towers that are probably filling defensive roles.
As for how effective these bubble shields can be if they let a slow-moving vehicle in (Albeit while frying the electronics or something) I say they're about as effective as the bubble shields in Halo 3. =D
-Slipspace bombs might not have been used due to the fact that they are, as per Carter, The Long Life And Possible Death of J. Preston Cole, and Ghosts of Onyx, "The most advanced and expensive equipment Humanity has to offer." Wonder what happens if you have two of them on a single ship, one inactive in Slipspace?
-From what I heard on HBO, the interior of the Autumn was designed near the beginning of the game's development cycle. The exterior was modeled towards the end, and this is one of the biggest reasons why the two don't match up (Aside from Rule of Cool)
-Ringleader's whole point about teleporters being inefficient relies on the teleporters being used for offense and the ships being able to instantly pick up and drop off troops. Corvettes need Phantoms and Spirits to pick up troops (Well, they might have a gravity lift, but dropships are faster), which the teleporters can handle. But if the teleporters are defensive structures around a dig, then their role is to bring in reinforcements from across a continent within seconds. If Corvettes don't have to fill that transport role, then they're free to go on the offense, raiding cities, airbases, orbital defenses, what have you.

Ringleader wrote:
My argument is that the teleporters of Reach are of a PtP system that doesn't require physical linkage, and may be more technical, hence its mounting on a Supercarrier.
That's really not your argument, thats the unfourtunatle factuality of the game. Your argument was that it, made sense I think? And how it was really working in the other games all along!

Yes, essentially.

Ringleader wrote:You know what else can fit inside of a corvette hanger bay? Thousands of troops and not a Teletower.

If you're saying that the upper part of a teleportation tower would have significantly impacted the Corvette's ability to carry troops, I counter with the assertion that such a warship wouldn't have much capacity anyways. The upper part of the tower, folded up like it appears to have been, would hardly have filled the hangar we saw in LNoS.

Ringleader wrote:[Exactly, the Covenant are like the Klingons of the Halo unvierse, which is why they use plasma swords, and largely short ranged weapons and not sniper rifles. I'm sure the Elites would be foaming at the mouth to be the first to touch down on Reach to kill as many humans as possible before dying gloriously in battle.

Can't help but think that a little Flanderization has gone on with the Elites. They are a warrior society, but that doesn't preclude the use of ranged weapons. Hell, the original manual states that they are excellent tacticians.

Shipmasters got their rank through a meritocracy and hundreds, if not thousands, of kills. Doesn't quite happen to a race of death-seekers.

Now for something I posted on HBO, which got somewhat favorable reviews in the thread. I acknowledge that the TFoR timeline is shot, but at least this makes sense of the events in Reach. Feel free to nitpick, just go beyond "that's stupid!"

If you want to know what my theory is regarding the Supercarrier, the Covenant presence on Reach, and why they didn't engage Humanity, keep reading.

To me, it has all the hallmarks of a stealth Forerunner Artifact recovery. A cloaked Supercarrier, able to carry so many corvettes and troops with it, could quickly plunder a sizeable Forerunner reliquary.

The cloaking supercarrier and towers that can mask the energy signatures of an army spread out across a small continent begs the question of what they are hiding from. Certainly not the UNSC; Standard Operating Procedures with a capital ship that large would be to sterilize the Human taint and then get to work excavating. The only other possibility, I think, is to conceal themselves from other Covenant.

-Cloaking would allow them to conceal an excavation from other Covenant that might arrive in-system. The less talking they have to do, the smaller the chance that word might leak back to someone with power.

-We already know that the Prophets have conspired independently and against each other, and the circumstances surrounding their rise to power don't make for a healthy working relationship. Mercy is there because they needed a third body with a pulse (And because he heard you-know-what). Truth was pulled into this by Regret's rash actions and pure ambition. And Regret is far too direct for Truth's taste.

-If one of the Prophets (I'm thinking Truth here. Barring obfuscating stupidity, Regret don't seem like the type) sought to acquire Forerunner artifacts under the table for his own purposes, he could have collected a small task force and headed it with Elites loyal to him. Truth could have kept Regret in the dark about the output of such-and-such a shipyard, and called in favors from particularly devoted Dochas. Regret could have shuffled reserves around and done the same trick with the shipyard to get a single supercarrier.

-The Fleet of Discrete Reclamation (Working title) could have been the fleet that had followed the Sigma Octanus artifact. Having discovered human presence, but maybe not realizing that this Humanity's base of operations, they could have decided to move in stealthily rather than risk a prolonged battle and losing to those orbital MAC guns. Important artifacts, such as the Forerunner database under Sword Base and similar finds.

-Further engagements after Sword Base could have been discouraged due to the impending assault on Reach. The Fleet of Discrete Reclamation needed to get their work done and bugger out fast.

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