Legalization of Marijuana

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:
This. And they don't even use marijuana; they extract TCP from the plant and use it in pills.

If you can't even name the molecule you probably shouldn't be in this argument.

Dude, it was a typo from an argument like 6 months ago.

That post he's quoting from you was posted 6 weeks ago, not 6 months.

"Like" as in, I'm exaggerating. Point is, it was a while ago.

And? Time doesn't really matter if there hasn't been new content between then and now, and you hadn't changed your stance or corrected it.

Didn't even notice it until now, but I guess if it's that damn important to you all then I'll fix it.

I really don't like pyramid quotes.

Really? I thought it was funny as Hell.

No. Quote loops are a serious offense on respectable message boards. This is a serious thread where we discuss serious issues in society.

Bonus points for anyone who can name the molecule in my avatar.

Hydrogen!

Angatar wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:
This. And they don't even use marijuana; they extract TCP from the plant and use it in pills.

If you can't even name the molecule you probably shouldn't be in this argument.

Dude, it was a typo from an argument like 6 months ago.

That post he's quoting from you was posted 6 weeks ago, not 6 months.

"Like" as in, I'm exaggerating. Point is, it was a while ago.

And? Time doesn't really matter if there hasn't been new content between then and now, and you hadn't changed your stance or corrected it.

Didn't even notice it until now, but I guess if it's that damn important to you all then I'll fix it.

I really don't like pyramid quotes.

Really? I thought it was funny as Hell.

No. Quote loops are a serious offense on respectable message boards. This is a serious thread where we discuss serious issues in society.

Bonus points for anyone who can name the molecule in my avatar.

Hydrogen!

That's an element!

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:
This. And they don't even use marijuana; they extract TCP from the plant and use it in pills.

If you can't even name the molecule you probably shouldn't be in this argument.

Dude, it was a typo from an argument like 6 months ago.

That post he's quoting from you was posted 6 weeks ago, not 6 months.

"Like" as in, I'm exaggerating. Point is, it was a while ago.

And? Time doesn't really matter if there hasn't been new content between then and now, and you hadn't changed your stance or corrected it.

Didn't even notice it until now, but I guess if it's that damn important to you all then I'll fix it.

I really don't like pyramid quotes.

Really? I thought it was funny as Hell.

No. Quote loops are a serious offense on respectable message boards. This is a serious thread where we discuss serious issues in society.

Bonus points for anyone who can name the molecule in my avatar.

Hydrogen!

That's an element!

Helium!

Aside, Hydrogen is an element, but it's normally diatomic. I'd call it a molecule, in general.

Angatar wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:
This. And they don't even use marijuana; they extract TCP from the plant and use it in pills.

If you can't even name the molecule you probably shouldn't be in this argument.

Dude, it was a typo from an argument like 6 months ago.

That post he's quoting from you was posted 6 weeks ago, not 6 months.

"Like" as in, I'm exaggerating. Point is, it was a while ago.

And? Time doesn't really matter if there hasn't been new content between then and now, and you hadn't changed your stance or corrected it.

Didn't even notice it until now, but I guess if it's that damn important to you all then I'll fix it.

I really don't like pyramid quotes.

Really? I thought it was funny as Hell.

No. Quote loops are a serious offense on respectable message boards. This is a serious thread where we discuss serious issues in society.

Bonus points for anyone who can name the molecule in my avatar.

Hydrogen!

That's an element!

Helium!

Aside, Hydrogen is an element, but it's normally diatomic. I'd call it a molecule, in general.

It has some similar structures with methamphetamine and lysergic acid diethylamide, but I'm not certain the exact nature of the molecule.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:

Rotaretilbo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Angatar wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:

Dud Doodoo wrote:

Nocbl2 wrote:
This. And they don't even use marijuana; they extract TCP from the plant and use it in pills.

If you can't even name the molecule you probably shouldn't be in this argument.

Dude, it was a typo from an argument like 6 months ago.

That post he's quoting from you was posted 6 weeks ago, not 6 months.

"Like" as in, I'm exaggerating. Point is, it was a while ago.

And? Time doesn't really matter if there hasn't been new content between then and now, and you hadn't changed your stance or corrected it.

Didn't even notice it until now, but I guess if it's that damn important to you all then I'll fix it.

I really don't like pyramid quotes.

Really? I thought it was funny as Hell.

No. Quote loops are a serious offense on respectable message boards. This is a serious thread where we discuss serious issues in society.

Bonus points for anyone who can name the molecule in my avatar.

Hydrogen!

That's an element!

Helium!

Aside, Hydrogen is an element, but it's normally diatomic. I'd call it a molecule, in general.

It has some similar structures with methamphetamine and lysergic acid diethylamide, but I'm not certain the exact nature of the molecule.

'Tis the latter. And what a wondrous molecule it is.

stop
It looks similar, but it isn't any of the four LSD configurations I'm aware of.

this
Hey guys, where's the bathroom?

horse
Note: The upper-left molecule is a laxative for Turians and Quarians.

shit
Laxative AND halucinogen? Doesn't sound like a good combination

Rotaretilbo wrote:stop
It looks similar, but it isn't any of the four LSD configurations I'm aware of.

Eh, I blame google images. While my knowledge of its workings may be expansive, I am no chemist.

Moving on. Would anyone like to continue this debate?

Gauz wrote:shit
Laxative AND halucinogen? Doesn't sound like a good combination

I prefer the term psychedelic. Hallucinations can be caused by a variety of non psychedelic drugs, and are typically viewed as supplementary to the main/desired effects of psychedelics. (profound consciousness change, change of perspective, abstracted thinking, spiritual awakening, etc)

Dud wrote:Moving on. Would anyone like to continue this debate?

*raises hand

Sorry for attacking such an old post Rot, but it has to start somewhere

Rot wrote:And how much are you willing to pay for a pack of "organic" pot? Cigarette prices are ridiculously high, and the "organic" cigarettes are even more expensive. American Spirit often runs for a few dollars more than the other name brands.

I'm quite certain marijuana will never be as inexpensive as cigarettes. Cigarettes are taxed at relatively exorbitant rates, sure... but you can still get 20 cigarettes for around $6. You'll never be able to get 20 joints for $6, or even 5 for $6. Marijuana prices have been insane for as long as marijuana has been a popular force in our society. Whether as a result of high prices or taxation, it'll probably always cost at least $5 for the equivalent of a single joint.

Regarding organic VS pumped full of additives, there's a different culture surrounding marijuana, which isn't quite as tolerant of that sort of thing... and many of the factors which encourage the use of additives aren't as significant with marijuana. A lot of the shit in cigarettes is there to make them smoother and easier to inhale, as cigarettes are typically smoked frequently throughout the day, and you're meant to inhale and exhale at a faster pace, over and over and over again. Marijuana isn't smoked like that.

rot wrote:And I'm not saying the high lasts, just the laziness and stupidity, which are both things that you're not going to notice while you're being lazy and stupid.

I'm not unwilling to believe that marijuana has ANY negative long-term effects on the human brain... but I'm pretty certain that any such effects are incredibly minuscule, and not worth really being concerned about. I'm pretty sure even moderate alcohol consumption can have a deleterious effect on the brain. It's all a matter of scale, and the scale of the damage done by marijuana on the average person's brain is so small that it really isn't worth arguing over.

People you'd classify as 'stoners' likely sound/appear stupid either because they are naturally stupid people, because they are typically high when you speak to them, or both. Marijuana does not cause an otherwise intelligent person to become stupid or lazy. Lazy people like to sit on their asses all day, smoking weed and playing World of Warcraft. People who aren't lazy prefer to smoke in moderation. Marijuana does not influence your personality to the degree that you're suggesting.

Rot wrote:The fine I outlined wasn't ridiculous. The current fine is $2000. I simply increased the fine by 2.5 and removed the potential for jail time for misdemeanor possession.

In the state of Ohio, possession will get you a $250 ticket. Paraphernalia will get you a criminal record, and about the same amount in fines/court costs. $5,000 is absolutely ridiculous. You're saying that if I were unlucky (or careless) enough to be caught doing something that I, without harm, do on a regular basis, I should have to pay more than the entirety of my summer income? Even for someone making $35,000 a year, that's nearly 15% of their income. Keep in mind that, while jail time is possible it's almost unheard of for first-offenders.

Anyway, regardless of specific fine amounts, what's wrong is the notion that someone should be forced by the government to pay a fine or serve a jail sentence... for enjoying a relatively harmless substance... which affects no person other than themselves.

Rot wrote:I think you people are putting too much emphasis on the concept that marijuana is a gateway drug because your dealer is going to trick you into trying harder stuff. Marijuana is a gateway drug because it provides a high, and many people will seek out the "best" high. If a person finds out that getting a blowjob makes them feel good, they will typically seek out sex, which will make them feel even better. It doesn't matter if they hang around with sluts all the time or not. Hanging around with sluts might make it easier, and maybe some people who would otherwise seek it out won't if it's not readily available, but not being around sluts all the time is not going to suddenly curb people seeking out recreational sex.

People who you classify as 'stoners' are probably more likely than most to experiment with harder drugs... but that's because those are the sort of people who would otherwise be interested in doing so WHETHER OR NOT marijuana existed. I, for example, have been interested in and open to trying marijuana since I was made aware of its existence. I've also been interested in trying hallucinogenic drugs since I was made aware of their existence (which was long before I ever smoked). Those dispositions are a result of my personality, my upbringing, etc, and have nothing to do with my experience with marijuana. I've been smoking for nearly 3 years now, and I still have zero interest in and would refuse the vast majority of harder drugs.

Ordinary people will go no higher than marijuana, alcohol, and cigarettes. There's a reason why marijuana is so nicely portrayed in our pop-culture, and heroin isn't. People embrace marijuana. They don't embrace the harder stuff. The VAST majority of people, upon receiving a blow job, do not move on to facial defecation. Ordinary people aren't wired like that.

Rot wrote:I think it's pretty well documented that people who are high on weed are more prone to make stupid decisions, especially stupid decisions that involve short-term gain and long-term loss. And it's not like you can use weed as an excuse to skip work. "Sorry, boss. I was high, so I couldn't come in." Ya, that's not happening.

Weed really doesn't affect decision-making in the way people who've never used it tend to describe. Unlike alcohol, marijuana does not lower your inhibitions, or reduce your capacity for reasoning or understanding of consequences. It affects short term memory, and it makes you hungry. If anything, going to work might slip your mind, and you might show up late... but you really shouldn't be smoking before work to begin with (just as you shouldn't be drinking before work).

I smoked every night during the summer (usually around 10PM,) and also worked 35-40+ hour weeks. I went to work high ONCE, and I did it because, after smoking at around noon on what was meant to be my day off, I received a txt message from a co-worker asking me to cover his shift (which was in 30 minutes). Despite being high, I gladly agreed (was pretty eager to work), got dressed, brushed my teeth, jumped in the car, went to work, and put in a good 6 hours. Weed doesn't make you lazy. Being high makes you tolerant of what might otherwise be boring, but it doesn't make you lazy.

Rot wrote:Unless it's a harder drug? Because I don't see anyone advocating the legalization of cocaine and heroin. Those drugs are decidedly self-destructive, after all. Shouldn't it be a personal choice? This argument is a slippery slope. You can't say that the government has no right to prevent people from being self-destructive unless you're willing to go all the way with that argument.

They shouldn't be criminalized. A person should not be arrested for the possession or use of a substance that is of no harm to anyone but themselves. It should be illegal to sell these substances, and their possession should be met with confiscation, and some form of treatment, and perhaps probation. Putting people in jail for harming themselves doesn't make any sense, and won't do any good. Were it legal, I think a lot of people would try marijuana. Not so many people would try meth.

Rot wrote:
The point stands: jail is a miserable place, but it isn't a criminal mastermind factory.

No. What it is is a place that builds connections between criminals, and more importantly, which makes people incredibly bitter and resentful toward society. It turns relatively decent people into callous, potentially violent criminals.

Rot wrote:How so? You act like legalizing marijuana is just going to make dealers disappear. How is making marijuana super easy to obtain going to make dealers disappear? If anything, it will force dealers to sell to underage.

There wouldn't be enough of a market for dealers to sell to. Kids bent on smoking would get it from an uncle, big brother, cousin, older friend... and adults would be able to purchase it legally for themselves. That's exactly how it is with alcohol. I'm underage. I drink. I don't get it from a "dealer". I get it from a family member.

It's still easier to get weed, and at least in the case of alcohol, the person getting it for me is someone who gives a shit about me, and would cease to do so if he sensed that I might be developing a problem.

When my dad went to college, beer with 3.2% alcohol content was legal for 18 year olds (in Ohio). This meant that when younger people drank, they typically did it in public areas, in the presence of adults (who, in effect, acted as supervision,) and were served by people who would cut them off if they were too drunk. Making something illegal usually puts people in greater danger, and RARELY STOPS PEOPLE FROM DOING IT. These issues aren't as simple as you make them out to be.

Rot wrote:You're grossly overestimating the number of people in prison for possession or dealing of marijuana. In 2004, there were 1414846 people in prison. Of those, roughly 44816 were in prison for marijuana-related felonies. That's about 3.17% of all prisoners. That's down from 3.38% in 1997. The legalization of marijuana would hardly solve the overcrowding of prisons.

That statistic doesn't take into account the fact that marijuana is the biggest source of funding for organized crime... but that's all sort of beside the point, which is that criminalizing a substance, especially one as harmless as marijuana, is morally wrong.


As a nice punctuation to all of this, please watch this video. The guy being interviewed is Milton Friedman. He was a free market economist, and a very, very, very smart guy. Unlike the great Carl Sagan, he probably never touched marijuana in his life. Keep in mind that this video is from the 1980's, and that smart/informed people have understood this issue since the drug war began, and have been fighting it, as Romney would say, 'tooth and nail' for the past 40+ years. It's bad policy. It always has been. It's socially destructive and morally wrong.



And here's another one. This one's Ron Paul. Again, from the 80's. Imagine how frustrating it must have been for these guys to be right for so long, while everyone around them was so painfully wrong.

I know why you call yourself toaster now.

I wish I had my own house and a degree in chemistry. You'd be able to get away with selling acid around here for way more than you normally could. Acid trade here is dead... no one has time to make that shit.

ok

sorry I made you feel uncomfortable


lol

I think he was just confused because it didn't have much to do with any argument.

Well the argument's kind of over so I just put that little side note.


None of you are DEA right?

Holy shit I got the same opinion as before I started smoking.

My primary issue with drug legalization is that it is undoubtedly a can of worms. We have some speculation from both sides, but nobody really knows what the effects will be. Legalization could cripple national intelligence or positively shape our culture, eliminate a dangerous black market or boost other black markets while maintaining its own, increase the tax base or lower tax revenue over all, open new markets or decimate the economy... we just don't know. People can speculate and point to other countries, but America is such a big, complicated system that nobody could possibly know the results with any certainty.

In the end, legalization is a Pandora's box. Should we open it? I recognize a number of legitimate arguments for legalization, but I still lean towards keeping the box shut. Perhaps loosening the harsh criminalization of marijuana would be a more sympathetic goal?

Well with that logic nothing should change ever because people don't know the potential consequences, its how we deal with them that matters. Besides If we always made perfect decisions the world would be a pretty boring place.

Most other decisions can be easily reversed or have a much better understanding of the consequences. This is not like abortion, same sex marriage, or really any other political hot topic. Legalization is an irreversible decision with far more unknowns than most.

It isn't the governments place to tell us what we can or can't do with our bodies <3

Gauz wrote:It isn't the governments place to tell us what we can or can't do with our bodies <3

Right, but my concern has nothing to do with the well being of those who would chose to use marijuana.

CivBase wrote:

Gauz wrote:It isn't the governments place to tell us what we can or can't do with our bodies <3

Right, but my concern has nothing to do with the well being of those who would chose to use marijuana.

I think that cracking down on dealers (like the moonshiners) would be a good idea, and then having actual guys that have licenses to distribute marijuana sell it.

A license should be free, but you need a college degree. That way, it's a totally legit thing for business majors. Like running a bar... of marijuana.