The Physics of Space Battles

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Post by Nocbl2 on Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:41 pm

Kasrkin Seath wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:Probably expensive to issue an EVA suit for every personnel aboard each ship.
Much less expensive than maintaining an atmosphere and escape pods.
Depends on the ship I would think.

I think it would be easier to simply have an atmosphere in larger ships.
Yeah. Or they could design a super-efficient way to recycle gases. Maybe artificial grana-like mechanisms? Convert CO2 to O2?

In the case of weapons, boarding wouldn't really help until maybe you could fire an EMP at the enemy, destroying or disabling computer systems required for the PDSs. But, then, why not just use an EMP to destroy computers that controlled life support? Instantly dead carrier. But rail drivers look cooler.
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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:48 pm

Most things can be shielded from EMP's

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:51 pm

Most things can be shielded from NNEMP, but I would be curious to know how well we can shield things from NEMP.

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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:01 pm

you can shield against a NEMP

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Post by Zaki90 on Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:54 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
So... you're going to launch troop ships full of fleshy meatsacks against a target, brimming with PDS, hope they last long enough to get within meters of the objective (When the battle spans thousands of kilometers) and... cut their way in?

No, individual capsules. They would be maneuverable by a team on the ship.

And I doubt they would span thousands of kilometers. Chances are we cannot even locate them thousands of kilometers away.

Cut their way in? They simply fly in as many different directions as they can. And only so many turrets can shoot down hundreds of ships flying in every direction possible.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:

Getting close enough would be too much of a problem. You've got to speed your way over and then slow down fast enough to match the enemy's orbit and velocity.
If they were going to cut their way in or fill the ship with chemical gas, I would easily defeat them by
A) Rotating the ship and evading so that the soldiers are cut off from escape craft, and potentially the landing craft.
B) Discretely placing canisters of expanding, non-flammable foam mixed with carbon fibers. Upon boarding (or heavy clouds of shrapnel) the canisters would go off and cover a section of the ship with the foam, impeding boarding attempts.

Seeing as battleships would be pretty big, it doesn't seem much of a problem.

As for your plan for defeating them:

A- Rotating the ship does nothing ( If you actually have engines on the side of the ship). The landing crafts would land all of the ship, so there going to land. The troops could also easily destroy the engines. Thus permitting the escape craft to land safely.

B- The troops would board the ships after the ship is flushed with mustard gas ( And seeing the land crafts covering the entire ship, the entire ship would be practically dead. ( This is considering a large ship with its own atmosphere, seeing individually breathing systems on board would be handled by destroying the ship)



Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
In your dreams.

Well, almost all of the stuff we are talking about has been dreamt, and like a dream, all of the stuff we are talking about has been and maybe never a reality.

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:03 pm

Zaki90 wrote:No, individual capsules. They would be maneuverable by a team on the ship.

They would essentially be like missiles, except bigger and easier to shoot.

Zaki90 wrote:And I doubt they would span thousands of kilometers. Chances are we cannot even locate them thousands of kilometers away.

Thousands of kilometers sounds accurate to me. This is a space battle we're talking about. Ships themselves would be kilometers in length.

Zaki90 wrote:Cut their way in? They simply fly in as many different directions as they can. And only so many turrets can shoot down hundreds of ships flying in every direction possible.

You realize most ships will have this stuff called armor, right?

Zaki90 wrote:Seeing as battleships would be pretty big, it doesn't seem much of a problem.

If they impact too hard, the jolt will probably kill all occupants of these pods.

Zaki90 wrote:As for your plan for defeating them:

A- Rotating the ship does nothing ( If you actually have engines on the side of the ship).

You seriously believe that ships wouldn't be designed in such a way that rotation was possible?

Zaki90 wrote:The landing crafts would land all of the ship, so there going to land.

And tell me, what is going to tether them to the outside of the hull while it is spinning? At a certain speed, magnetic boots aren't going to cut it.

Zaki90 wrote:The troops could also easily destroy the engines. Thus permitting the escape craft to land safely.

Easily? With what? The kind of explosives soldiers can carry would be next to useless at destroying large engines from the outside.

Zaki90 wrote:B- The troops would board the ships after the ship is flushed with mustard gas

...and how, exactly, do you suppose the ship would become flushed with mustard gas?

Zaki90 wrote:( And seeing the land crafts covering the entire ship, the entire ship would be practically dead. ( This is considering a large ship with its own atmosphere, seeing individually breathing systems on board would be handled by destroying the ship)

I'm still trying to figure out how mustard gas is getting into the ship in the first place...

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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:53 pm

mustard gas? I'd hit them with nerve gas

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:55 pm

How to stop people from walking around the ship:
Make the armor ceramic (Makes sense anyways, composite is lighter and more endurable than metal.)
Make sure that whatever ports the EVA repair craft use for docking can be covered or simply ejected out into space.

Anyhow, Zaki is relying on the ship being dead in the water (so to speak) with no fighter support.
Anyhow, with fuel concerns and all, your boarding craft are going to be coming from a known trajectory, which means that's less area you have to pay attention to.
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Post by Angatar on Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:24 pm

If you destroyed the ships engines, wouldn't it be easier to just destroy it i nstead from range than to send people to it to destroy it?

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:52 pm

I don't know about making the armor ceramic. Magnetic boots also serve the purpose of making emergency repairs should repair craft be unavailable.

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Post by dragoon9105 on Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:08 pm

just have deployable turrets that can rise out of the hull and incinerate anything walking on the surface if they even make it to the ship.

for actually boarding the ship your going to need a very very armored rocket or spacecraft with a drilling mechanism on the front to bore through the ships armor. and it needs an escort unless you are deploying these in massive numbers.

Now if you hit an entire ship with an EMP or something to essentially make it float dead in the water you might have better success.
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:36 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:I don't know about making the armor ceramic. Magnetic boots also serve the purpose of making emergency repairs should repair craft be unavailable.
Which is why I mentioned retractable pylons or clamps, to aid in docking or repair.
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Post by Zaki90 on Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:45 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
They would essentially be like missiles, except bigger and easier to shoot.

Guided missiles that is. Yes, it would be easier to shoot. But not easy enough to cause a real problem. Seeing that over 100 will be launched simultaneously and swarming in every direction before crashing into the hull.

I imagine it as bees being shot stinger first out of a machine gun directly at a person.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Thousands of kilometers sounds accurate to me. This is a space battle we're talking about. Ships themselves would be kilometers in length.

Even then it will only be a matter of making them go fast enough.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
You realize most ships will have this stuff called armor, right?

A ton of metal with a strong metal lance at the end shot directly would most likely pierce.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
If they impact too hard, the jolt will probably kill all occupants of these pods.

How? Obviously they would have padding so bumping their head won't be a problem and they will be strapped to the seat unless they eject from it. It would be equivalent to the ODST pods only maneuverable.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
You seriously believe that ships wouldn't be designed in such a way that rotation was possible?

I have neither seen or heard of using this axis fast enough to do any kind of real problem.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
And tell me, what is going to tether them to the outside of the hull while it is spinning? At a certain speed, magnetic boots aren't going to cut it.

The same thing they use in space today except it retracts and expands at the user's demand. It can also unlatch if the user wishes. It would be attached to the launching ship at first.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Easily? With what? The kind of explosives soldiers can carry would be next to useless at destroying large engines from the outside

Well, it depends on what kind of engine. An emp loaded with one of the landing ships near the engine (electric powered) could disable it.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
...and how, exactly, do you suppose the ship would become flushed with mustard gas?
The launching ships would come with tanks of it. They crash into the hull, obviously piercing it. And we the time is right, the gas releases through the tip of the lance on the launching ship, and into the big ship.


Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Anyhow, Zaki is relying on the ship being dead in the water (so to speak) with no fighter support.
Anyhow, with fuel concerns and all, your boarding craft are going to be coming from a known trajectory, which means that's less area you have to pay attention to.

Fighter support would not help either. Ever shot bees with a BB gun? It is practically impossible. The bees being to small and fast.

But which are you going to be firing at? Those launching ships are the main threat to your ship. Are you going to ignore them while they tear apart your ship and focus only at the enemy battleship.

dragoon9105 wrote:just have deployable turrets that can rise out of the hull and incinerate anything walking on the surface if they even make it to the ship.

The turrets could be crushed by the enemy knowing the location and specifically smashing them while landing.

dragoon9105 wrote:for actually boarding the ship your going to need a very very armored rocket or spacecraft with a drilling mechanism on the front to bore through the ships armor. and it needs an escort unless you are deploying these in massive numbers.

Drilling mechanism could be on one of the launch ships and would be obviously escorted by the other troops.

dragoon9105 wrote:Now if you hit an entire ship with an EMP or something to essentially make it float dead in the water you might have better success.

Duh, I knew that, but if you could not get the EMP within range...

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Post by Felix on Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:10 pm

Zaki, what you're are suggesting is basically sending your crew on a sucidal mission every time you enter a battle. What would happen if say, there was more than one ship? Also, what would happen once you got inside the ship? You think the crew would just let you stroll in?

I'm pretty sure that they would have automatic weapons on the outside and inside of the ship, and doors and things like that.

There is a reason why you don't use troop transports as your primary mode of attack.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:23 pm

Zaki90 wrote:Guided missiles that is. Yes, it would be easier to shoot. But not easy enough to cause a real problem. Seeing that over 100 will be launched simultaneously and swarming in every direction before crashing into the hull.

I imagine it as bees being shot stinger first out of a machine gun directly at a person.

You do realize that there will likely be at least a few dozen point defense guns, with AI-aided targeting systems, right? That's not to mention defense missiles.

Zaki90 wrote:Even then it will only be a matter of making them go fast enough.

I think the main issue would actually be reaching the ship, period. We're talking about really big, slow moving (if they go too fast, the occupants will pass out or even die) missiles with no explosive payload.

Zaki90 wrote:A ton of metal with a strong metal lance at the end shot directly would most likely pierce.

Traveling at a decent enough speed, maybe? Problem: a decent enough speed also results in the death of the occupant of the pod.

Zaki90 wrote:How? Obviously they would have padding so bumping their head won't be a problem and they will be strapped to the seat unless they eject from it. It would be equivalent to the ODST pods only maneuverable.

Except the ODST pods were highly susceptible to point defense, which is why they were used for planetary insertion, not boarding action.

Zaki90 wrote:I have neither seen or heard of using this axis fast enough to do any kind of real problem.

Then you need to widen your horizons?

Zaki90 wrote:The same thing they use in space today except it retracts and expands at the user's demand. It can also unlatch if the user wishes. It would be attached to the launching ship at first.

Do you realize how unwieldy that kind of space suit tether system is?

Zaki90 wrote:Well, it depends on what kind of engine. An emp loaded with one of the landing ships near the engine (electric powered) could disable it.

Unless, of course, people had the sense to shield it...like all other military equipment is. Not to mention that a NNEMP is very weak.

Zaki90 wrote:The launching ships would come with tanks of it. They crash into the hull, obviously piercing it. And we the time is right, the gas releases through the tip of the lance on the launching ship, and into the big ship.

If the lance is hollow, I imagine it is a lot less reliable at piercing the armor. Not to mention that we're not talking about like a foot of armor, we're talking like meters of it.

Zaki90 wrote:Fighter support would not help either. Ever shot bees with a BB gun? It is practically impossible. The bees being to small and fast.

Ever seen wasps kill bees? Ya, try using the right analogy. Fighters are only a little bit bigger than these pods.

Zaki90 wrote:But which are you going to be firing at? Those launching ships are the main threat to your ship. Are you going to ignore them while they tear apart your ship and focus only at the enemy battleship.

The ship has other weapons to deal with the ship. Fighter support is primarily for defense anyway.

Zaki90 wrote:The turrets could be crushed by the enemy knowing the location and specifically smashing them while landing.

You realize that these things aren't going to be maneuverable or as pin point accurate as missiles, right? And that even if they were, they would probably still not be able to accurately smash the turrets.

Zaki90 wrote:Drilling mechanism could be on one of the launch ships and would be obviously escorted by the other troops.

Except in space, there is no torque, and so the drill doesn't work.

Zaki90 wrote:Duh, I knew that, but if you could not get the EMP within range...

Not to mention that it would have to be a massive EMP and that most of the ship would be shielded from EMP anyway.

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Post by BBJynne on Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:30 pm

Why isn't there torque in space?

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:33 pm

I probably used the wrong term, but effectively, there is no resistance that causes the drill to be the part that spins rather than the ship itself. When the drill meets resistance, the landing craft will spin rather than the drill, unless the landing craft has counter thrusters. The whole thing is just a waste of fuel.

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:53 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:I probably used the wrong term, but effectively, there is no resistance that causes the drill to be the part that spins rather than the ship itself. When the drill meets resistance, the landing craft will spin rather than the drill, unless the landing craft has counter thrusters. The whole thing is just a waste of fuel.
Actually, the force exerted by the drill will be equal to the force exerted on the spacecraft.
I'm pretty sure that the drill would go in a little bit, but without counterrotating bits, clamps, or whatnot, both craft are going to end up spinning, the landing craft radically more than the bigger ship.
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Post by Zaki90 on Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:03 pm

Felix wrote:Zaki, what you're are suggesting is basically sending your crew on a sucidal mission every time you enter a battle. What would happen if say, there was more than one ship? Also, what would happen once you got inside the ship? You think the crew would just let you stroll in?

I'm pretty sure that they would have automatic weapons on the outside and inside of the ship, and doors and things like that.

There is a reason why you don't use troop transports as your primary mode of attack.

Suicidal? No...

Everytime? No...

And I answered everything. The crew would have been killed by the mustard gas.

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:11 pm

Suicidal? Completely.

Everytime? I hope not.

And no, you didn't. Considering the point defense systems are accurate enough to take down missiles, which are much smaller than these bulky pods with people in them, as well as a tank of mustard gas and a giant metal lance that is several meters long, and of course propulsion systems. You seem to assume that magically hundreds of these things get through (what, were you launching thousands? at the very least, I'd estimate success ratings of landing to be 50%, though considering the nature of these pods, likely much lower), and that there is magically no attempt to attack them on the hull of the ship. And that magically there is enough mustard gas to completely flood the entire ship instantly (not to mention that these things would likely all hit near the same area on the ship, or are you going to have them pass the ship and then magically turn around at extremely high speeds, resulting in enough Gs to cause the occupant's brain the liquefy, so that you can hit them from all directions), and that magically no one thinks to don EVA suits to prevent being effected at all by this magical mustard gas, and that magically everyone aboard the ship not affected by the gas is completely unarmed.

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Post by laxspartan007 on Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:48 pm

yep...
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Post by Gold Spartan on Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:52 pm

IF you're going to do your suicidal plan Zaki, at least use Nerve Gas.
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Post by laxspartan007 on Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:02 pm

id use laxitive gass...
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Post by Felix on Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:42 am

Zaki90 wrote:
Felix wrote:Zaki, what you're are suggesting is basically sending your crew on a sucidal mission every time you enter a battle. What would happen if say, there was more than one ship? Also, what would happen once you got inside the ship? You think the crew would just let you stroll in?

I'm pretty sure that they would have automatic weapons on the outside and inside of the ship, and doors and things like that.

There is a reason why you don't use troop transports as your primary mode of attack.

Suicidal? No...

Everytime? No...

And I answered everything. The crew would have been killed by the mustard gas.

It is completely sucidal. You're sending troops to enemy craft(s) with little to no support from escorts. Did you forget about fighters? Troop transports would be nothing more than target practice to them.

Thank God you have that much common sense. But there is a reason why boarding craft is rarely used. It is much safer to destroy the ship from a distance.

That doesn't make any sense. Where is this mustard gas coming from? And, would you not expect them to have, lets say, airlock doors? Or ventalation shafts? I really hope in the future, you are not a ship commander...
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Post by Nocbl2 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:22 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:
If they impact too hard, the jolt will probably kill all occupants of these pods.

Zaki90 wrote:How? Obviously they would have padding so bumping their head won't be a problem and they will be strapped to the seat unless they eject from it. It would be equivalent to the ODST pods only maneuverable.

You do know a ton of people die while deploying in ODST pods, right? And those pods are maneuverable? And they even have padding? It's not just pads to absorb shock. The sudden deceleration would kill anything inside.
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