The Physics of Space Battles

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Post by laxspartan007 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:25 am

Felix wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:
Felix wrote:Zaki, what you're are suggesting is basically sending your crew on a sucidal mission every time you enter a battle. What would happen if say, there was more than one ship? Also, what would happen once you got inside the ship? You think the crew would just let you stroll in?

I'm pretty sure that they would have automatic weapons on the outside and inside of the ship, and doors and things like that.

There is a reason why you don't use troop transports as your primary mode of attack.

Suicidal? No...

Everytime? No...

And I answered everything. The crew would have been killed by the mustard gas.

It is completely sucidal. You're sending troops to enemy craft(s) with little to no support from escorts. Did you forget about fighters? Troop transports would be nothing more than target practice to them.

Thank God you have that much common sense. But there is a reason why boarding craft is rarely used. It is much safer to destroy the ship from a distance.

That doesn't make any sense. Where is this mustard gas coming from? And, would you not expect them to have, lets say, airlock doors? Or ventalation shafts? I really hope in the future, you are not a ship commander...


hahaha, even I wouldnt get in His ship!

and what about the Vacuum of space, the mustard gass wouldnt go anywhere in the ship, it would just drift away...
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:00 am

"Commander Zaki! Boarding craft have landed on our ship! They have pumped minimal amounts of mustard gas into the ship itself!"

"Gasp...we're all doomed!"

"Couldn't we just...seal off the affected area and open an airlock?"

"Of course not, you fool! We're all doomed! Best to just lay down and die."

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Post by laxspartan007 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:13 am

hahaha!
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Post by Felix on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:17 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:"Commander Zaki! Boarding craft have landed on our ship! They have pumped minimal amounts of mustard gas into the ship itself!"

"Gasp...we're all doomed!"

"Couldn't we just...seal off the affected area and open an airlock?"

"Of course not, you fool! We're all doomed! Best to just lay down and die."

"Should we put paper bags over our heads?"
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Post by Zaki90 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:20 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:
You do realize that there will likely be at least a few dozen point defense guns, with AI-aided targeting systems, right? That's not to mention defense missiles.

And it still would be just a matter of having better pilots.


Rotaretilbo wrote:
I think the main issue would actually be reaching the ship, period. We're talking about really big, slow moving (if they go too fast, the occupants will pass out or even die) missiles with no explosive payload.

Big? It would be like 7 feet long and 3 feet wide.

And most of them would have an explosive payload. For the explosive missions.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Traveling at a decent enough speed, maybe? Problem: a decent enough speed also results in the death of the occupant of the pod.

Another tactic would be to eject seconds before the crash (occupants are automatically tethered to the ship to begin with) and drag toward it after it crashes.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Except the ODST pods were highly susceptible to point defense, which is why they were used for planetary insertion, not boarding action.

Defense? What defense is going to be employed while hundreds if not thousands of troops are deployed all around your ship and deactivating defenses if not crashing into them with the launching ships.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Then you need to widen your horizons?

But can they be used effectively and fast enough to stop a ship from landing. Ships could find thems grappling to the ship and lowering itself down.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Do you realize how unwieldy that kind of space suit tether system is?

Magnetic boots and also there are working jet packs in space. Tether system's are the most reliable though.

Zaki90 wrote:Well, it depends on what kind of engine. An emp loaded with one of the landing ships near the engine (electric powered) could disable it.
Rotaretilbo wrote:
Unless, of course, people had the sense to shield it...like all other military equipment is. Not to mention that a NNEMP is very weak.

The defenses would be deactivated and the people would be killed.


Rotaretilbo wrote:
If the lance is hollow, I imagine it is a lot less reliable at piercing the armor. Not to mention that we're not talking about like a foot of armor, we're talking like meters of it.

Then drilling equipment would be necessary. And if a meter of solid steel is what we are talking about, how would missiles be any better.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Ever seen wasps kill bees? Ya, try using the right analogy. Fighters are only a little bit bigger than these pods.

Yes, but if these pods are directly on the ship. The fighters would have to shoot at them yes? Thus damaging the ship itself. The launching ships have an explosive payload.


Rotaretilbo wrote:
The ship has other weapons to deal with the ship. Fighter support is primarily for defense anyway.

Please specify. And I believe fight support would be used for harassing the enemy ship.


Rotaretilbo wrote:
You realize that these things aren't going to be maneuverable or as pin point accurate as missiles, right? And that even if they were, they would probably still not be able to accurately smash the turrets.

No, they would be just about a missile with guy inside of it which explode when it wants to. I don't see how it would not be as pin-point as a missile.


Rotaretilbo wrote:
Except in space, there is no torque, and so the drill doesn't work.

I talking about melting in, or even blowing the armor up if it's necessary. And I believe that a drill that did not spin, but smash up and down would be the next best thing.


Rotaretilbo wrote:
Not to mention that it would have to be a massive EMP and that most of the ship would be shielded from EMP anyway.

Massive ship means massive EMP. Everything sounds so massive. I see EMPs are the first option before going on a boarding action mission.

Felix wrote:
It is completely sucidal. You're sending troops to enemy craft(s) with little to no support from escorts. Did you forget about fighters? Troop transports would be nothing more than target practice to them.

Sucidal, they get escorts as well as fighter support. And as for fighters, if they shoot the troop transports, it explodes. Causing damage to the ship and the troops themselves are fine.

Its like shooting a tub of gunpowder with incendiary bullets on your OWN HOUSE.

Felix wrote:
Thank God you have that much common sense. But there is a reason why boarding craft is rarely used. It is much safer to destroy the ship from a distance.

The reason boarding crafts are rarely used is because on Earth, boats shoot and fire on a 2d view. A game a battleships is 2d. In space, its 3d. Basically, you can attack from anywhere.

Felix wrote:
That doesn't make any sense. Where is this mustard gas coming from? And, would you not expect them to have, lets say, airlock doors? Or ventalation shafts? I really hope in the future, you are not a ship commander...

From the tanks in the launching ships? The launching ships would basically cover the entire ship. And unless you have a airlock every 5 feet...

laxspartan wrote:
and what about the Vacuum of space, the mustard gass wouldnt go anywhere in the ship, it would just drift away...


I clearly stated that the mustard gas would be used in ships with an atmosphere.

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Post by Zaki90 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:23 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:"Commander Zaki! Boarding craft have landed on our ship! They have pumped minimal amounts of mustard gas into the ship itself!"

"Gasp...we're all doomed!"

"Couldn't we just...seal off the affected area and open an airlock?"

"Of course not, you fool! We're all doomed! Best to just lay down and die."

Problem the affected area is everywhere seeing the launching ships land all over the ship. So really, unless you have an airlock for every 10 feet, your doomed.

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Post by RX on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:25 am

You're saying that you'll have so many small pods that they can cover a ship that stretch over a kilometer? I really wonder if anyone will think it's worth it...
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Post by Felix on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:29 am

Zaki90 wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:"Commander Zaki! Boarding craft have landed on our ship! They have pumped minimal amounts of mustard gas into the ship itself!"

"Gasp...we're all doomed!"

"Couldn't we just...seal off the affected area and open an airlock?"

"Of course not, you fool! We're all doomed! Best to just lay down and die."

Problem the affected area is everywhere seeing the launching ships land all over the ship. So really, unless you have an airlock for every 10 feet, your doomed.

That still doesn't make any sense. How the hell are you going to get that many troop transports any where near it? And no, it wouldn't cover the entire ship. The ship would have airlocks every few yards. And VENTALATION.
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Post by Zaki90 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:33 am

RX wrote:You're saying that you'll have so many small pods that they can cover a ship that stretch over a kilometer? I really wonder if anyone will think it's worth it...

Yes, apparently.

You have a meter of pure steel for an entire kilometer, why can't I have 500 maneuverable explosive small pods with tanks of mustard gas?

Felix wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:"Commander Zaki! Boarding craft have landed on our ship! They have pumped minimal amounts of mustard gas into the ship itself!"

"Gasp...we're all doomed!"

"Couldn't we just...seal off the affected area and open an airlock?"

"Of course not, you fool! We're all doomed! Best to just lay down and die."

Problem the affected area is everywhere seeing the launching ships land all over the ship. So really, unless you have an airlock for every 10 feet, your doomed.

That still doesn't make any sense. How the hell are you going to get that many troop transports any where near it? And no, it wouldn't cover the entire ship. The ship would have airlocks every few yards. And VENTALATION.

Then we find your men scattered through ships they can't control because they are air locked in. And they can't leave the ship and the ventilation is only spreading it further.

The troop transports would be maneuverable. Thus incoming missiles could be evaded. Basically the same way you plan you send missiles.

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Post by Felix on Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:50 am

Zaki90 wrote:

You have a meter of pure steel for an entire kilometer, why can't I have 500 maneuverable explosive small pods with tanks of mustard gas?
Because no one would be insane enough to pilot that? It's basically flying explosives. And, to clarify, they are EASY targets. One lucky shot, and BAM the crew is dead. And five hundred!? You must have a crew of either insane or sucidal people...

Zaki90 wrote:
Then we find your men scattered through ships they can't control because they are air locked in. And they can't leave the ship and the ventilation is only spreading it further.

The troop transports would be maneuverable. Thus incoming missiles could be evaded. Basically the same way you plan you send missiles.
Again, you have defence systems, such as automated weapons, or DOORS.

Of course the transports would be maneuverable. What idiot wouldn't have them maneuverable? The thing is, they have basically no armor, no weapons, and VERY explosive substances. One fighter can probably take out a few dozen. I like to see the insane pilots try to avoid machine gun turret fire as well.
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Post by RX on Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:01 pm

Remember that the ship isn't 2D... It has a up-down-right-left-front-back. And I doubt the ship will be so small that it requires only one pod to cover all floors.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:21 pm

Zaki90 wrote:And it still would be just a matter of having better pilots.

Better pilots? We're talking about guns that are designed to take out missiles and fighters! You expect these bulkier, unwieldy pods that are being piloted either by ground soldiers or third party pilots to fair better?!

Zaki90 wrote:Big? It would be like 7 feet long and 3 feet wide.

And most of them would have an explosive payload. For the explosive missions.

And you expect to fit a person, propulsion systems, guidance systems, a giant lance, tanks of mustard gas, weapons, and explosives into that craft?

Zaki90 wrote:Another tactic would be to eject seconds before the crash (occupants are automatically tethered to the ship to begin with) and drag toward it after it crashes.

So then they would slam into the hull of the larger ship and splatter. That's even worse than the previous plan!

Zaki90 wrote:Defense? What defense is going to be employed while hundreds if not thousands of troops are deployed all around your ship and deactivating defenses if not crashing into them with the launching ships.

Point defense guns to shoot them down before they ever got close, and missiles to intercept them. You can't assume that the defenses are already destroyed by the pods if they haven't even landed yet!

Zaki90 wrote:But can they be used effectively and fast enough to stop a ship from landing. Ships could find thems grappling to the ship and lowering itself down.

It would still be enough so that magnets alone won't keep soldiers on the hull itself. If they're tethered, at least they won't fly off into space, but they will also be completely useless.

Zaki90 wrote:Magnetic boots and also there are working jet packs in space. Tether system's are the most reliable though.

Working jet packs, but I think you fail to realize just how unwieldy EVA is.

Zaki90 wrote:The defenses would be deactivated and the people would be killed.

Except they wouldn't.

Zaki90 wrote:Then drilling equipment would be necessary. And if a meter of solid steel is what we are talking about, how would missiles be any better.

For one, missiles can travel much faster, because they don't have to worry about organic living humans being inside of them. Missiles are smaller and harder to hit with point defense. And, most of all, you can fire missiles in the thousands, and if half of them are blown up, no one cares, because missiles aren't alive!

Zaki90 wrote:Yes, but if these pods are directly on the ship. The fighters would have to shoot at them yes? Thus damaging the ship itself. The launching ships have an explosive payload.

THE FIGHTERS CAN SHOOT THE PODS BEFORE THEY GET TO THE SHIP! HOW DIFFICULT IS THIS TO COMPREHEND!?

Zaki90 wrote:Please specify. And I believe fight support would be used for harassing the enemy ship.

I have specified. You just like to assume that your pods can magically avoid all of the things I've specified.

Zaki90 wrote:No, they would be just about a missile with guy inside of it which explode when it wants to. I don't see how it would not be as pin-point as a missile.

It's a lot larger, much heavier, and it cannot exceed certain speeds or make turns at a certain radius without killing its occupant. Noticing any differences yet?

Zaki90 wrote:I talking about melting in, or even blowing the armor up if it's necessary. And I believe that a drill that did not spin, but smash up and down would be the next best thing.

If it smashes up and down, it still needs some kind of anchor, or it would just launch itself away from the larger ship.

Zaki90 wrote:Massive ship means massive EMP. Everything sounds so massive. I see EMPs are the first option before going on a boarding action mission.

You were talking about devices the soldiers were using. They can't carry massive EMPs. The only EMPs that are going to be massive are NEMP. In case you didn't know, that stands for Nuclear EMP, which is to say, an EMP created when a nuclear device goes off. And even then, you've yet to note that the military can shield devices from even NEMP.

Zaki90 wrote:Sucidal, they get escorts as well as fighter support. And as for fighters, if they shoot the troop transports, it explodes. Causing damage to the ship and the troops themselves are fine.

Its like shooting a tub of gunpowder with incendiary bullets on your OWN HOUSE.

Unless you shoot it BEFORE IT FUCKING GETS THERE! Or do these magically teleport there too?

Zaki90 wrote:The reason boarding crafts are rarely used is because on Earth, boats shoot and fire on a 2d view. A game a battleships is 2d. In space, its 3d. Basically, you can attack from anywhere.

Actually, you can attack with aircraft, so it's more like 2.5D. More importantly, they also have guns everywhere, too, so it isn't as easy as you make it sound. Or did you think that ships would be engineered to fire on a 2D plane in space?

Zaki90 wrote:From the tanks in the launching ships? The launching ships would basically cover the entire ship. And unless you have a airlock every 5 feet...

First of all, do you realize how many pods it would take to cover the surface area of a ship that is approximately a kilometer by a quarter of a kilometer by a quarter of a kilometer? The average ship would have a surface area of over one million meters. Not to mention that not every square inch of the damn ship leads immediately into hallways and the like, and you won't be able to tell from the outside what does and does not. Not to mention that these lances would have to be meters in length and have to made of some pretty serious shit to penetrate the armor, especially if they're also hollow so to deliver the mustard gas, not to mention that there's no fucking room on your 7x3x3 pod for a fucking tank of mustard gas, not to mention that you wouldn't be able to swarm the fucking ship because fucking pods don't have the maneuverability of interceptors because there isn't fucking room on a 7x3x3 pod for fucking dedicated engines and thrusters and shit. You seem to have no fucking clue what you're even talking about!

Zaki90 wrote:Yes, apparently.

You have a meter of pure steel for an entire kilometer, why can't I have 500 maneuverable explosive small pods with tanks of mustard gas?

500? Zaki, you'd have to fucking launch a couple million of these pods to get enough close enough to actually cover the entire fucking ship!

Zaki90 wrote:The troop transports would be maneuverable. Thus incoming missiles could be evaded. Basically the same way you plan you send missiles.

But our missiles aren't that maneuverable, and the reason we use them is because if half of them are destroyed en route, nobody on our side died so nobody cares.

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Post by Zaki90 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:55 pm

Felix wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:

You have a meter of pure steel for an entire kilometer, why can't I have 500 maneuverable explosive small pods with tanks of mustard gas?

Because no one would be insane enough to pilot that? It's basically flying explosives. And, to clarify, they are EASY targets. One lucky shot, and BAM the crew is dead. And five hundred!? You must have a crew of either insane or sucidal people...

It's a one man crew. And that's a lucky shot.

Felix wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:
Then we find your men scattered through ships they can't control because they are air locked in. And they can't leave the ship and the ventilation is only spreading it further.

The troop transports would be maneuverable. Thus incoming missiles could be evaded. Basically the same way you plan you send missiles.
Again, you have defence systems, such as automated weapons, or DOORS.

The defense systems are shut down before they board the battleship.

Felix wrote:
Of course the transports would be maneuverable. What idiot wouldn't have them maneuverable? The thing is, they have basically no armor, no weapons, and VERY explosive substances. One fighter can probably take out a few dozen. I like to see the insane pilots try to avoid machine gun turret fire as well.

Not really. Like I said, the launching ships will be like bees. And running after bees with a gun and killing them is hard. And I don't think it would be a machine gun. These launching ships would most likely be super-sonic aswell.

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Post by Felix on Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:14 pm

Zaki90 wrote:

It's a one man crew. And that's a lucky shot.
I meant as a whole. And not really. Pretty easy to hit.

Zaki90 wrote:
The defense systems are shut down before they board the battleship.
Um, how?


Zaki90 wrote:
Not really. Like I said, the launching ships will be like bees. And running after bees with a gun and killing them is hard. And I don't think it would be a machine gun. These launching ships would most likely be super-sonic aswell.


No, the launching craft would be like, retarded bees. They would be flying everywhere, going in every direction unsure of what the hell what they were doing. And you seem to forget a lot of the things... They are FIGHTERS. Designed to take out small craft. And, until we develop lasers (which would be even deadlier to them) yes, it would machine guns. And? So would the fighters, unless you think landing craft would be more widely used than fighters in dogfights...

And that's even worse now that I think of it. If they're going super-sonic, and hit the ship, wouldn't they, I don't know, die on impact? Or do as you say they would, and eject from the pod, which would be even worse. As, if they are still teathered to the pod, it will most likely rip them apart, or somehow live, go spat on the ship. You seem to think that some force will slow them down in space. NEWS FLASH. There is no gravity in space to slow them down.

Oh yah, you're insane...
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Post by laxspartan007 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:40 pm

Zaki90 wrote:

laxspartan wrote:
and what about the Vacuum of space, the mustard gass wouldnt go anywhere in the ship, it would just drift away...


I clearly stated that the mustard gas would be used in ships with an atmosphere.

onece you *smash in* like all your ideas state, the atmosphere is let out, even if you somehow get it in an area, theres about 20 Yards eather way untill you reach another Airlock...congrats you spent 1 Billion+ to kill less than 20 crewmen...
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Post by Offensive Bias on Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:06 pm

laxspartan007 wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:

laxspartan wrote:
and what about the Vacuum of space, the mustard gass wouldnt go anywhere in the ship, it would just drift away...


I clearly stated that the mustard gas would be used in ships with an atmosphere.

onece you *smash in* like all your ideas state, the atmosphere is let out, even if you somehow get it in an area, theres about 20 Yards eather way untill you reach another Airlock...congrats you spent 1 Billion+ to kill less than 20 crewmen...
Lax did you just... MAKE AN INTELLIGENT POST?! *Universe collapses*
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Post by laxspartan007 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:10 pm

i can if i want to...i just never want to...

Post Count: 710

Intelligent Post Count: 1
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Post by Nocbl2 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:51 pm

Zaki's intelligent post count: -100,000,000,000,000
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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:48 pm

This is some funny shit.

Boarding should be reserved for emergency's or special scenarios, and used only when the two ships are close together.

Say, you disabled a ships engines and weapons and wanted to get inside.
THAT is when you would board a ship.

Of course, there would be no reason to do this if you planned on destroying the ship in the first place.

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Post by laxspartan007 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:13 pm

Exactly!
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:42 pm

Zaki90 wrote:It's a one man crew. And that's a lucky shot.

Yes, but you're talking about using hundreds, even thousands of these. Not to mention that if they are ace pilots, they're probably not very good at ground combat, which is what they'll be doing once aboard the enemy ship.

Zaki90 wrote:The defense systems are shut down before they board the battleship.

I have already outlined that core systems would be shielded from EMPs, even NEMPs to some degree, and you can't crash into defense turrets that are inside the ship. Those will fight even if your mustard gas somehow magically took everyone else out.

Zaki90 wrote:Not really. Like I said, the launching ships will be like bees. And running after bees with a gun and killing them is hard. And I don't think it would be a machine gun. These launching ships would most likely be super-sonic aswell.

First of all, again with the bees and gun analogy? This analogy would fit if the ship was trying to shoot the pods with its rail gun! But since the ship has AI assisted point defense guns specifically designed to take out small ships as well as smaller missile systems meant to intercept smaller craft in its vicinity, the analogy does not apply. And, further, there are fighter aircraft which are specifically designed to be escorting the larger ships from just this sort of threat. Sure, some of the fighters might not be present, but hey, even if the fighters are harassing the big ship if that's where these pods launched from, the fighters can engage them well before they make it to their own ship.

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The Physics of Space Battles - Page 4 Empty Re: The Physics of Space Battles

Post by dragoon9105 on Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:34 pm

Hence why if you are boarding you dont use a mechanical drill you use a plasma drill. and use a heavy electromagnet to attach to the ship you are boarding.

These pods should not have a pilot they should be driving by a dumb AI or a squad member trained to fly the pod, a pilot should be more of use in fighter craft not suicidal boarding pods.

Boarding is only an effective option if you crippled a vessel and you want to take it for your own uses NOT for taking it out of a fight.

also assuming turrets on a ships outer hull are based on plasma not bullets nothing and i mean nothing short of a magnetic shield is going to keep those pods intact if they are hit, NOTHING.

and on the mustard gas. No. you dont even need an EVA suit, we invented something called gas masks.

so unless your releasing an acidic vapor that can eat through airlocks and EVA suits into a ship with also renders even boarding the ship pointless (becuase your own men will melt along with the enemy). don't board a ship!.
dragoon9105
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The Physics of Space Battles - Page 4 Empty Re: The Physics of Space Battles

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