Existence of God

TNine wrote:

Felix wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:

Felix wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:

Felix wrote:

Twizzey wrote:What Created the Earth? Metoers
What Created the Solar System? A new Star
What Created the Galaxy? A bunch of material (hydrogen and such) gathered together.
What Created the Universe? Big Bang
What Created the Big Bang? Dark Matter (not sure)
What Created that? God.

But what created God?

God is not bound by the laws of conservation of energy and mass as he created all energy and mass. God is not energy or mass. God created time. Thus God is not bound by time. God is not bound by the laws as God created the laws. As God created everything. God cannot be the thing he created, God cannot be a thing, a person, or a place.

You have the wrong question. It is more like What is God?

God is something that is indescribable. There are not words to describe God as God is bound to anything in this universe. And words are to describe something in the universe. Thus words cannot describe what God is made of or what he is.

God is a mystery.

I think the question is, how did a supreme being come into exsintance? One church told me he created himself, another said he was always there. This, I do not understand, if he created himself, how was he always there?

God was not created. He simply always existed. As he invented time. He lives outside of time. There cannot be a infinite in the Universe. Yet he lives out of the universe because he created it. God is infinite.

And there is tangible evidence that God existed. Alot of it. We can all see it,smell it, feel it, taste it, and hear it.

It is everything around you. The Cell Theory and Laws of Conservation of Energy and Mass prove evolution and the Big Bang wrong.

I seem to be at a loss here. You didn't really explain why one church told me that God created himself, and why another said he was always there. He couldn't always have been there, as what was there? It's like saying "It's just there, accept it".

And where is this evidence of God? It's all around me is it? I must not be looking hard enough, because I am seeing things created by man, not God.

The Cell Theory and Laws of Conservation of Energy and Mass proved evolution wrong and Big Bang wrong? How? You're not answering the questions, you're just saying things without an answer. I find there is more proof behind evolution than there is proof on God, but that's just me.

God didn't break the Laws of Physics, He created them. He created Cell Theory, He created Laws of Conservation of Energy and Mass, and He created the Big Bang (if that's what actually happened). He came first, and created all things after. Including time.

thiks may be double but it is more palatable

God is bnot before time there is no before time time is the only way to say before there is an outside of time


there cannot be an infinite negative amount of time ( time from OUR perspective haveing no begginning) because the speed of light has been proven to decay with the gaining of time (see the correlation ) therefore is there was no beginning of time from our perspective light would not have a speed and since we know it does, time had a beginning

refute that

I don't have any definitive beliefs. That's the point.

Who am I to determine how the world came to be?

I will say, I think some iteration of the the Big Bang theory is likely true. We know that the Universe is expanding from a central point. I'm not sure I buy the idea that all of the universe was contained in an atom-sized area of space, but I think the expansion of the universe was probably caused by some form of explosion.

As for the formation of life... well I don't know, and I'm not going to attempt to answer that. I think life on Earth probably began at the cellular level. I don't think that just 'evolved' (in the darwinian sense of the term) into sea and land creatures, but you never know.

I do think that evolution... to the extent of humans and apes having a common ancestor... is a pretty sound theory.

The creation of the whole of the cosmos... I don't know. Could be multiple universes... could be anything really. I will admit that I'm not terribly fair to the theory of god.

The idea that a sentient being was the first thing to ever exist, and that it knowingly masterminded the creation of time and the cosmos just doesn't settle well with me. Still, I don't present that in my arguments, as it's not really a valid point to make. Furthermore, I don't think it's an impossible notion, and I wouldn't even say it's illogical... just a tad unlikely.

I don't think time has to have started somewhere, and you still haven't really successfully explained why you think otherwise. It seems that you are basing your argument about time on your own, separate idea of what time really is.

no did you not see my point about the deteriorating rate of the speed of light

if it already had an infinite amount of time to be here it would have deteriorated

plus if the universe is expanding (which it is and you know it)

and since through tests we have seen that speed and mass have an effect on time the universe could not have already had an infinite amount of time to expand as it is currently expanding and you cant get bigger than infinity

the light thing is definite proof its not just evidence

at least based on all current scientific data
and there is 0 on the opposite side

because light time and matter interfere with each other
and until recently we thought light had a specific speed but has been found to have a really slowly deteriorating rate

[and it is thought to be at a changing rate but like a graph of
2^(-X)
so it decreased a lot at the beginning but has slowed the rate of change to very subtle]- this is still not completely accepted not because of disbelief but because of not enough evidence yet

but again since the speed of light and time are directly correlated
time had to have had a "beginning" (i put it in quotes because out side of time there is no beginning, so technically it didnt have a beginning but if you could go back in time there would be a point of not being able to go back any further)

if you were outside of time you could see all of time because everything outside of time has already happened because it cant be happening cause no time
so outside of time time has ended is beginning and is in the process
i would imagine it to be like a book
has an end middle and beginning but is happening currently

Cheese wrote:Agreed.

I'm considering swapping sides for a day or two to see what it's like.

/me teamkills civbase

*sigh*

WHEN WILL THIS EN-

*falls to the ground, dead*

Kslidz wrote:if it already had an infinite amount of time to be here it would have deteriorated

Time doesn't emit light. Stars do, and new stars are formed all the time. I still don't see your point.

Light does slow down with time... but the speed of light as a whole doesn't go down...


like RT said new light is emitted from tons of different things... those packets of energy eventually deteriorate... but the source keeps sending out more.... so the fact that there is light does not mean that time is infinite....


as long as there are sources of light then light will exsist... if there was only 1 beam if light total... then yes... it will have lowered into the infrared spectrum and nolonger be visible light....

kslidz wrote:

TNine wrote:

Felix wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:

Felix wrote:

Zaki90 wrote:

Felix wrote:

Twizzey wrote:What Created the Earth? Metoers
What Created the Solar System? A new Star
What Created the Galaxy? A bunch of material (hydrogen and such) gathered together.
What Created the Universe? Big Bang
What Created the Big Bang? Dark Matter (not sure)
What Created that? God.

But what created God?

God is not bound by the laws of conservation of energy and mass as he created all energy and mass. God is not energy or mass. God created time. Thus God is not bound by time. God is not bound by the laws as God created the laws. As God created everything. God cannot be the thing he created, God cannot be a thing, a person, or a place.

You have the wrong question. It is more like What is God?

God is something that is indescribable. There are not words to describe God as God is bound to anything in this universe. And words are to describe something in the universe. Thus words cannot describe what God is made of or what he is.

God is a mystery.

I think the question is, how did a supreme being come into exsintance? One church told me he created himself, another said he was always there. This, I do not understand, if he created himself, how was he always there?

God was not created. He simply always existed. As he invented time. He lives outside of time. There cannot be a infinite in the Universe. Yet he lives out of the universe because he created it. God is infinite.

And there is tangible evidence that God existed. Alot of it. We can all see it,smell it, feel it, taste it, and hear it.

It is everything around you. The Cell Theory and Laws of Conservation of Energy and Mass prove evolution and the Big Bang wrong.

I seem to be at a loss here. You didn't really explain why one church told me that God created himself, and why another said he was always there. He couldn't always have been there, as what was there? It's like saying "It's just there, accept it".

And where is this evidence of God? It's all around me is it? I must not be looking hard enough, because I am seeing things created by man, not God.

The Cell Theory and Laws of Conservation of Energy and Mass proved evolution wrong and Big Bang wrong? How? You're not answering the questions, you're just saying things without an answer. I find there is more proof behind evolution than there is proof on God, but that's just me.

God didn't break the Laws of Physics, He created them. He created Cell Theory, He created Laws of Conservation of Energy and Mass, and He created the Big Bang (if that's what actually happened). He came first, and created all things after. Including time.

thiks may be double but it is more palatable

God is bnot before time there is no before time time is the only way to say before there is an outside of time


there cannot be an infinite negative amount of time ( time from OUR perspective haveing no begginning) because the speed of light has been proven to decay with the gaining of time (see the correlation ) therefore is there was no beginning of time from our perspective light would not have a speed and since we know it does, time had a beginning

refute that

Fine then.
God created time, and when time was first created, he was there. He was before time, but technically it's impossible to be before time, as that doesn't make sense.

God created Time and Matter. Then he created the laws of physics, eventually earth, the Garden of Eden (which is now gone), the whole shebang, the entire universe, carefully crafted by God.

God, however, won't change the state the world is in, because it has all been created by man, and man must suffer for his own mistakes. Taking that away now would be taking away an element of free will.

I AM ENDING THIS THREAD ONCE AND FOR ALL!
God may or may not exist, but why the heck does it matter, anyway? If we're all gonna die, we should help others, not waste our time flaming each other for something we don't understand. This is all just useless blathering, clogging up the forum. I say, let's get a mod to delete it. WHO'S WITH ME? Oh, and also, we can just start a thread with a poll, and see what happens. TNine, time is just something useful for measurement.

Nobody's flaming.

Nocbl2 wrote:I AM ENDING THIS THREAD ONCE AND FOR ALL!
God may or may not exist, but why the heck does it matter, anyway? If we're all gonna die, we should help others, not waste our time flaming each other for something we don't understand. This is all just useless blathering, clogging up the forum. I say, let's get a mod to delete it. WHO'S WITH ME? Oh, and also, we can just start a thread with a poll, and see what happens. TNine, time is just something useful for measurement.

Start a poll? This is a debate, not a poll. We're not arguing about who has more people on their side.

I'd join in, but I don't think I could really argue either side. I believe that the most logical conclusion a person can come to, through use of science, evidence, etc, is that there may or may not be a God, there may or may not be an afterlife, there may or may not be a Satan, so on and so forth. After that, whether you choose atheism or theism, I believe it is a personal faith issue. I personally choose to believe that there is a God, particularly the God as defined in the Bible and by Fundamentalist Christian faiths (I make such distinctions because there are other religions such as Islam and Mormonism which believe in parts of the Bible or in a God similar to the one from the Bible). That is my personal choice, and nothing that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I think there is evidence for God, but most evidence can work both ways or otherwise explained away. Perhaps if I find myself bored again, I'll attack both sides.

ReconToaster wrote:

Kslidz wrote:if it already had an infinite amount of time to be here it would have deteriorated

Time doesn't emit light. Stars do, and new stars are formed all the time. I still don't see your point.

i have to say and am embarrassed to do so but hope will see that in my doing so i realize i may weaken my credibility

i had heard several (bout a week and a half) days ago about the overall decay in the speed of light looked it up found some convincing stuff

i have looked up again and seem to have found that the first sites i was led to were old and new sites by the same people have refuted their earlier statements although that does not kill my argument

but on that point i was completely wrong and you can ignore that one part

but my argument if time had no beginning then how are we at this point in time
on a line of infinity if there is no start how can there be a middle
if on a record there is no beginning to a song how do you get to the song
if there is no beginning to a drop how do you get to 10000 feet
i hope you get what i am saying
if there is no beginning how are there points and how you get to those points because obviously infinite amount of time has not passed
so if infinite is before us we wouldnt be here because limitless time has not passed to get to us
im giving as many analogies and examples as i can but if you still dont understand please ket me know

since the world had a start there had to be a certain amount of time before that before there can be a start
is a game starts in infinite time how do we travel through those infinite minutes to reach the game and start the game

so if a football game start after infinite time has passed it will never start infinite never ends so we never get to the game
so you see time must have a beginning unless we are an anchor for time but how could we become an anchor for time and that really is just an absurd idea

I understand what you're saying as it applies to your analogies, but I don't think the same idea has to be true for the Universe/Cosmos.

Time, in the case of the world we live in... is not linear. It is a force. It can be affected by gravity. It changes relative to its observer. See 'Twin Paradox.'

If time is not linear, there is no defined 'beginning' 'middle' and 'end.'

I don't see why this force called 'Time' could not have always existed. The human story, the human perception of time, is linear. It is not the same on a Cosmic Scale.

Now excuse me while I pick those pieces of my brain off the floor. My head asploded about half way through all that.

kslidz wrote:
on a line of infinity if there is no start how can there be a middle
if on a record there is no beginning to a song how do you get to the song
if there is no beginning to a drop how do you get to 10000 feet
i hope you get what i am saying
if there is no beginning how are there points and how you get to those points because obviously infinite amount of time has not passed

To pretty much all of these, you couldn't. But I see your point about nothing being able to happen on an infinite timescale... buuuuuuut...

Yes there can be no middle on an infinite line. But space seems to be infinite - so is heaven (i think). My suggestion, stop drawing all over infinite planes. It's a huge waste of time and you won't even know where to begin

If there is no start to the song then you will always have the song. Just like assuming space is infinite we can still see the Earth.

With the drop, you simply couldnt drop anything from the beginning, simply because it doesn't exist. You could however drop it from anywhere else to have it reach 10,000ft. People need to be less conventional when dropping things anyway...

The main one to take away from is the space+earth one. Just because something doesn't have a definitive starting point doesnt mean it can't exist.


I realise my answer can be totally disbunked when someone mentions space is no longer considered infinite - but I come bearing the highest authority! 2:1 on yahoo answers!

ReconToaster wrote:Zaki, I'd like you to go and take some notes from Rasq, Civ, and Rot. You see, when they argue, they actually bother to make points.

Instead, here you are, doing little else other than preaching.

Please, learn to debate without sounding like some sort of psychotic pastor. Saying that you have evidence of god that you just can't tell us about is not an argument. It's a dickish comment that has ABSOLUTELY no purpose.

I used to think that it was scientists who imagined themselves to know more about the universe than we really understand, but you have proven me wrong. It is people like you, people who present themselves as masters of time mechanics and the origin of the cosmos that act as if they know everything.

Kslidz is just as bad, but at least he's managed to put me in a rough position with his whole matrix statement.

Why do you think that time had to be created? Why can't time have always been?

What do you mean by "points"?

1.I'm using common sense and simple science.

Law of Conservation of Energy and Matter: Energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed.

Thus a Big Bang would not have existed without energy or matter.

Third Law of the Cell Theory: All cells come from pre-existing cells.

Thus a cell could not have been created without another cell. So a cell could not have been created and evolution unless the Cell Theory is wrong.

2.You want evidence. Um...

Everything? What other way can I put this. Exact opposite of nothing. Anything that exists.

3. Master? No.. I haven't finished highschool. But is simply illogical to think that everything came from nothing.

And honestly...

What is so good that there is no God? Will is really benefit anyone?

Zaki wrote:1.I'm using common sense

Common sense told us that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

Zaki wrote: Law of Conservation of Energy and Matter: Energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed.

So that energy has always been... why does this apply to god but not anything else?

Zaki wrote:Third Law of the Cell Theory: All cells come from pre-existing cells.

Which is true within our einsteinian universe and within our dimension. Nobody is claiming that it governs the entirety of the cosmos.

Zaki wrote:Everything? What other way can I put this. Exact opposite of nothing. Anything that exists.

That's called arrogance. I could say that everything in the Universe is evidence of the big bang theory, as the big bang may have created it all. Your evidence is based on the assumption that your theory is true in the first place, and that's just not valid.

Zaki wrote:What is so good that there is no God? Will is really benefit anyone?

Why must there be a benefit. Should we really base our beliefs on what would be most beneficial... only if it were true? No. We SHOULD base our beliefs upon what is most likely to BE true.

Zaki wrote: But is simply illogical to think that everything came from nothing.

But in the case of "God," it's completely reasonable? Whether or not he came before time, he still came from nothing.

ReconToaster wrote:

Zaki wrote:1.I'm using common sense

Common sense told us that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

Your point being?

ReconToaster wrote:

Zaki wrote: Law of Conservation of Energy and Matter: Energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed.

So that energy has always been... why does this apply to god but not anything else?

Because god created the laws that govern the universe.

ReconToaster wrote:

Zaki wrote:Third Law of the Cell Theory: All cells come from pre-existing cells.

Which is true within our einsteinian universe and within our dimension. Nobody is claiming that it governs the entirety of the cosmos.

Are you saying something from outside this universe or dimension created life? How can something cross dimensions or universes.

And the universe is literally everything. There is only 1 universe. God made the Universe. So he made everything because the universe is everything.

Dictionary.com:

the totality of known or supposed objects and phenomena throughout space; the cosmos; macrocosm

ReconToaster wrote:

Zaki wrote:Everything? What other way can I put this. Exact opposite of nothing. Anything that exists.

That's called arrogance. I could say that everything in the Universe is evidence of the big bang theory, as the big bang may have created it all. Your evidence is based on the assumption that your theory is true in the first place, and that's just not valid.

Not really,

Matter and energy cannot be destroyed or created. So the Big Bang did not create anything or destroy any matter or energy. Thus I can point out that there must have been matter and energy before the Big Bang. Thus I can say something that can change the laws that we are enclosed in created matter and energy.

I'm not saying it is the truth. But it is more likely.

ReconToaster wrote:

Zaki wrote:What is so good that there is no God? Will is really benefit anyone?

Why must there be a benefit. Should we really base our beliefs on what would be most beneficial... only if it were true? No. We SHOULD base our beliefs upon what is most likely to BE true.

Yah... I think we should base our beliefs on what would be most beneficial.

If there was the "Matrix" ( I don't believe it exists ) I would rather live in the Matrix. Instead of being on the outside about to ripped apart by squid shaped robots, I would be happier and calmer. I would not die and would continue to live the lie.

In my own way, I would be benefiting the robots and me.Sometimes living the lie is better than facing the truth.

Zaki wrote: But is simply illogical to think that everything came from nothing.

But in the case of "God," it's completely reasonable? Whether or not he came before time, he still came from nothing.[/quote]
No, God is not "completely" reasonable. But is it is still reasonable and beneficial.

Yah, I can say he came from nothing. And your point is?

Zaki90 wrote:

Zaki wrote: But is simply illogical to think that everything came from nothing.

But in the case of "God," it's completely reasonable? Whether or not he came before time, he still came from nothing.
No, God is not "completely" reasonable. But is it is still reasonable and beneficial.

Yah, I can say he came from nothing. And your point is?

Are you debating with yourself?

Cheese wrote:

kslidz wrote:
on a line of infinity if there is no start how can there be a middle
if on a record there is no beginning to a song how do you get to the song
if there is no beginning to a drop how do you get to 10000 feet
i hope you get what i am saying
if there is no beginning how are there points and how you get to those points because obviously infinite amount of time has not passed

To pretty much all of these, you couldn't. But I see your point about nothing being able to happen on an infinite timescale... buuuuuuut...

Yes there can be no middle on an infinite line. But space seems to be infinite - so is heaven (i think). My suggestion, stop drawing all over infinite planes. It's a huge waste of time and you won't even know where to begin

If there is no start to the song then you will always have the song. Just like assuming space is infinite we can still see the Earth.

With the drop, you simply couldnt drop anything from the beginning, simply because it doesn't exist. You could however drop it from anywhere else to have it reach 10,000ft. People need to be less conventional when dropping things anyway...

The main one to take away from is the space+earth one. Just because something doesn't have a definitive starting point doesnt mean it can't exist.


I realise my answer can be totally disbunked when someone mentions space is no longer considered infinite - but I come bearing the highest authority! 2:1 on yahoo answers!

im just going to talk about my favorite analogy

the cd thing if you always have a song how are you at a point in a song how do you get to a min thirty if there is no beginning then its not a min thirty but infinite and the next second is infinite so both the second are the same because they happen at the same time because infinite is before both so they are both the same and then you dont have a song but a single sound that has no beginning end or middle

but since each second is different there must be a beginning

mathematically 6+infinite= infinite
100000000000000+infinity+ infinity

so in accordance with infinity every thing is the same

and no the universe is not infinite but expanding
and if it is expanding it had a beginning otherwise it would already have reached infinity
it might not have an end but it did have a beginning (like in my point, just like time)


also biblically revelations says heaven has certain limitations
read revelations 21

kslidz wrote:

Cheese wrote:

kslidz wrote:
on a line of infinity if there is no start how can there be a middle
if on a record there is no beginning to a song how do you get to the song
if there is no beginning to a drop how do you get to 10000 feet
i hope you get what i am saying
if there is no beginning how are there points and how you get to those points because obviously infinite amount of time has not passed

To pretty much all of these, you couldn't. But I see your point about nothing being able to happen on an infinite timescale... buuuuuuut...

Yes there can be no middle on an infinite line. But space seems to be infinite - so is heaven (i think). My suggestion, stop drawing all over infinite planes. It's a huge waste of time and you won't even know where to begin

If there is no start to the song then you will always have the song. Just like assuming space is infinite we can still see the Earth.

With the drop, you simply couldnt drop anything from the beginning, simply because it doesn't exist. You could however drop it from anywhere else to have it reach 10,000ft. People need to be less conventional when dropping things anyway...

The main one to take away from is the space+earth one. Just because something doesn't have a definitive starting point doesnt mean it can't exist.


I realise my answer can be totally disbunked when someone mentions space is no longer considered infinite - but I come bearing the highest authority! 2:1 on yahoo answers!

im just going to talk about my favorite analogy

the cd thing if you always have a song how are you at a point in a song how do you get to a min thirty if there is no beginning then its not a min thirty but infinite and the next second is infinite so both the second are the same because they happen at the same time because infinite is before both so they are both the same and then you dont have a song but a single sound that has no beginning end or middle

but since each second is different there must be a beginning

mathematically 6+infinite= infinite
100000000000000+infinity+ infinity

so in accordance with infinity every thing is the same

and no the universe is not infinite but expanding
and if it is expanding it had a beginning otherwise it would already have reached infinity
it might not have an end but it did have a beginning (like in my point, just like time)


also biblically revelations says heaven has certain limitations
read revelations 21

All of those things are tricks of the language. And infinity isn't a number...at best it's a phrase, as all things that involve infinity have the answer infinity, negative infinty, or 0. This is a flaw in math, not infinity.

no it is not and that doesnt mean anything

how are you at point 6 if infinity is before it
then its not 6 its infinity
im not arguing the possibility of infinity after that point but before it cant make sense

and dont bring in negative infinity cause you cant have negative time so dont give me that shit

if there is a tangible point there is a beginning point to get to that point

you didnt refute anything i said just misunderstood it (no offense just read it again)

kslidz wrote:no it is not and that doesnt mean anything

how are you at point 6 if infinity is before it
then its not 6 its infinity
im not arguing the possibility of infinity after that point but before it cant make sense

and dont bring in negative infinity cause you cant have negative time so dont give me that shit

if there is a tangible point there is a beginning point to get to that point

you didnt refute anything i said just misunderstood it (no offense just read it again)

I did read your post. If there was infinite time before us, whether or not that's true, than there would still be now, there simply wouldn't be a way to MEASURE it. There are no points that can be measure, as infinity comes before it, but it would be there, nonetheless. Flaw in math and logic, NOT the Laws of Infinty.

but the point is we are measuring it it is happening therefore it has limits
there is just a flaw in your logic not in the math
just cause you want to dismiss everything doesnt mean its not true
quit dismissing and actually use logic if you wont then dont talk in the debate section cause you arent debating all you are saying is "wrong you have flaws"

thats not an argument

if you can measure it then there is a set a mount and if there is a set amount then it isnt infinity because infinity cant be measured

kslidz wrote:but the point is we are measuring it it is happening therefore it has limits
there is just a flaw in your logic not in the math
just cause you want to dismiss everything doesnt mean its not true
quit dismissing and actually use logic if you wont then dont talk in the debate section cause you arent debating all you are saying is "wrong you have flaws"

thats not an argument

if you can measure it then there is a set a mount and if there is a set amount then it isnt infinity because infinity cant be measured

That means infinity cannot exist. But it does exist, in math. We can still measure math though.

We don't have to measure something to make it exist, that is a very human, very incorrect human concept.

no infinity does not come before a number though infinity comes after all numbers

infinity does not come before now

we dont have to measure something to make it exist but if it can be measured it does exist