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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon May 21, 2012 7:39 am

My computer detected a sizable mass of electrons flowing out from Arizona, and I rushed to the Crimson Flame. My hopes were rewarded, for Rot has posted yet another one of his world-famous multiquotes!

Rotaretlibo wrote:But that isn't really saying much. Bungie's games have frankly been mediocre in terms of story since Halo 2, and only decent, not exceptional, in terms of gameplay.
But I wuved ODST...

And I disagree with the gameplay part. As far as I'm concerned,
Reach>Halo:CE>ODST>Halo 3>Halo 2.

And in the far distance, speculated upon by radio astronomers but never directly observed, Halo Wars cries itself to sleep every night.

Rotaretilbo wrote:The project was a disaster because 343i made no effort whatsoever to review or manage the projects. They told various anime studios to make a Halo-based episode, but failed to provide sufficient information for the various studios to follow any manner of cannon, barring extra research done by the studios themselves. At some point, these studios handed 343i their finished projects, 343i watched them, and 343i said "good, we'll release these now."
Again, partly because it's anime (And all anime needs giant mechs/swordfights/mecha starfighters!), partly because they were only x-teen minutes long and therefore harder to write a self-contained story for, partly because the anime studios weren't interested in anything but swordfights and explosions, partly because 343i was letting the studios have a medium-long leash.

And yeah, the studios were supplied with art assets and the Halo Story Bible. 343i also approved of the general outlines of the stories.

Sadly, outside of this forum, Halo fans are surprisingly amenable to mechs in their Halo. Personally, I blame the tainting influence of Gundam and Transformers cartoons. It is quite possible that I'm the only one who was not indoctrinated at a young age.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
From what I understood, much of Evolutions was unimpressive, but then, unimpressive is better than vomit inducing.
Unimpressive, yes. Worth picking up from the library/on the cheap just to read Nylund's story.

Rotaretilbo wrote:Oh, I'm not saying it couldn't have been worse. I'm just saying that they charged a rather decent sum of money for a glorified graphical update and bug patch, the latter of which frankly ought to have been free.
*Shrugs*
Compared to ODST, I didn't hear too many people complaining about the cost (Not nearly as many as I heard complaining that they can't have their classic multiplayer with modern XBox Live support) and as for the bug patch, not sure if it would have been possible to patch the original Halo. Was there even a framework for doing that?

Rotaretilbo wrote:Of course they're allowed to change anything they want. That does not mean that they should. I won't support overhauling iconic enemies so that they look 2% cooler in the eyes of a handful of fans.
Can't tell you how much I agree. Which is why I compared it to BioWare's "Artistic Integrity".
So I'll just give you links.
http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1138296
http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1135596
http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1135992
http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/halo.forum.pl?read=1126725

And, just for fun...
http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive37.pl?read=1114235

That guy just got Punk'd!

Rotaretilbo wrote:Except we're not seeing the DMR being used because the BR was too powerful or had issues. We're seeing the DMR being used in a totally separate role from the BR, which has been altered to fit a new role. It's silly.
I wouldn't say that the Battle Rifle had 'considerable spread' in Halo 3, but the DMR is much more accurate in Reach than the BR was in Halo 3.
The point is that, as far as accuracy goes, MA5<BR<DMR, and their spread have been exaggerated to demonstrate this.

I don't have too much trouble with this, because the spread has always been exaggerated in Halo so each gun can fit a comfortable niche. If it's fun to play, I ignore the fact that the MA5 acts like it has a 3-inch barrel, or that the plasma pistol can now overload vehicles.

Rotaretilbo wrote:The M6D was not standard issue, it was specifically requisitioned for the Spartan mission the Autumn was about to undertake. The M6C was standard issue, until it was replaced with the M6G.
True. My point with the weapons is that, even though you and I don't like it, the weapons in Halo's sandbox have been driven less by canon, and more by the necessities of gameplay.

The Battle Rifle has always handled like this. The Spartan Laser was introduced earlier than you think. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Rotaretilbo wrote:Throughout gameplay in Halo 2, you are using weapons from In Amber Clad, with the exception of the Super MAC at the very beginning. Whereas there were two battalions of a thousand men each stationed on the Autumn, the In Amber Clad barely warranted 200 ODST and a handful of Marines. Thus, it made some sense for the In Amber Clad to be equipped with the new BR55 and with M7s, rather than with assault rifles. But, frankly, I don't think anyone was particularly pleased with the absence of the assault rifle in Halo 2.
I don't think so.

Even if an assault rifle would be of limited use inside a frigate, the IAC was outfitted to support and supply ground troops, hence the tanks, drop pods, and Pelicans. The lack of an assault rifle is a pretty big hole in the armory.
Also, what about the deployment to New Mombassa? Shouldn't Marines who weren't stationed on the In Amber Clad have assault rifles?

Rotaretilbo wrote:They're never going to make a game that takes place before Halo: Reach. To do so, they would have to actually acknowledge (or further butcher) the Halo novels.
Sorry, man, but the ones who were unwilling to acknowledge the books were Bungie. 343i has at least released Data Drops that smooth out some of the bumps between Reach and The Fall of Reach.

Rotaretilbo wrote:We're seeing it from a top/side angle, but you can tell that the command deck is gone. Allow me to demonstrate:

Halo 4 - Page 21 ForwardUntoDawnHalo3toHalo4
Mind if I get feedback for that on HBO?

Rotaretilbo wrote:I am not looking for errors, Ang. I am looking at errors. I am looking at each piece of content released, and saying "does this lead me to believe that the game will be better or worse?" I'm not nitpicking here; the errors I am basing my caution on are not exactly obscure. For example, I don't care that they moved the UNSC emblem on the Dawn in Halo 4; I didn't even notice until I looked more closely at the image because I didn't initially recognize the ship.
Agreed.

Rotaretilbo wrote:Halo Wars was just a mediocre game with a story written by people with a poor understanding of the Haloverse.
Still a little too much credit.
Remember the data boxes? All these neat little hints into the Halo timeline. The writer KNEW the canon. Not as well as we did, but more than the typical Halo player.

If you want to know why the story was so bad, it was because Graeme Devine is a decent programmer, but a sucky writer who could only imitate what had come before.
If you want to know why they ended up in a micro-mini-not-really-Dyson-Sphere, it's because Bungie told ES to go screw around in a secluded corner of the universe so they don't screw up the canon, and ES took them literally.
If you want to know why we got mechs and transforming artillery units, it's because those things are cool, and ES has always wanted a cool tank in one of their games.
If you want to know why the Pillar of Autumn was still flying around and why Spartans have shields, chainguns, and Splasers, it's because the timeline on those things was never established, and because they're cool.
If you want to know why the Elites were wasp-waisted and why the Arbiter was channeling Sauron, it's because Blur only deals with what's cool, and their artists thought the Elites looked "hokey".

Rotaretilbo wrote:Who cares if Bungie has two or three perfect setups for their game which they have dictated to an author, and then go out of their way to use an overly convoluted story that literally directly contradicts all three books!
My only quibble is that nothing was 'dictated' to Nylund. He had the Halo Bible, but he also had plenty of leeway in writing. And he did good work. Mostly.
In fact, I believe that Staten once stated at a convention "Please direct all questions about time-bending Slipspace crystals to Mr. Nylund."

Agree with just about the rest of what you said.

And Angatar? It's probably a good idea to give it a rest. Some people are criticizing it, but nobody's gotten near Ringleader's level of whining.
I mean, we haven't posted an element-by-element breakdown of why the new Assault Carbine is Not Human in Any Way Imaginable, or why teleportation towers are inferior in every way, shape, and form to using Corvettes as drop-ships.
So relax. Enjoy the sunshine. Accept that we all have differences in what we like. Go to HBO and browse around there. Pre-order the Halo Legendary edition.
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Post by dragoon9105 on Mon May 21, 2012 2:10 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:The project was a disaster because 343i made no effort whatsoever to review or manage the projects. They told various anime studios to make a Halo-based episode, but failed to provide sufficient information for the various studios to follow any manner of cannon, barring extra research done by the studios themselves. At some point, these studios handed 343i their finished projects, 343i watched them, and 343i said "good, we'll release these now."
Again, partly because it's anime (And all anime needs giant mechs/swordfights/mecha starfighters!), partly because they were only x-teen minutes long and therefore harder to write a self-contained story for, partly because the anime studios weren't interested in anything but swordfights and explosions, partly because 343i was letting the studios have a medium-long leash.

And yeah, the studios were supplied with art assets and the Halo Story Bible. 343i also approved of the general outlines of the stories.

Sadly, outside of this forum, Halo fans are surprisingly amenable to mechs in their Halo. Personally, I blame the tainting influence of Gundam and Transformers cartoons. It is quite possible that I'm the only one who was not indoctrinated at a young age.


I'll put the blame on everyone wanting mechs in games especially halo because Microsoft has Published Mech games before and they were quite good (some of them). Namely Mechwarrior. When people think gritty Scifi mechs this is what they think.
Halo 4 - Page 21 Mwmercsbox
Yea these aren't the Super anime robot talking acrobat-swordfighters your looking for.
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Post by CivBase on Mon May 21, 2012 2:56 pm

One more giant mutli-quote and I'm locking this thread Mad

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Post by dragoon9105 on Mon May 21, 2012 3:00 pm

Just move it to the debate section since thats what this is.
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Post by Divine Virus on Mon May 21, 2012 3:33 pm

Wow, hehe nothing creates more debates/arguments on these forums then Halo, wouldn't you say?

Well, despite all this, who else has there Limited Edition pre-ordered besides me? Very Happy
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Post by KrAzY on Mon May 21, 2012 3:49 pm

Rot is entitled to massive-multiquote when people attack him

I much prefer that to him posting 5 posts with 8 points each like Ringleader used to




also, Rot I agree with almost everything you are saying. Guys, he isn't judging the game, he is judging what is released. which IS fair. There is a HUGE game design department at my school and we have had similar discussions. if they dont want critical discussion then they shouldn't do mediocre work.

as for gameplay, I do not like the gameplay style of CoD, I think that having a similar system for halo will destroy it, especially in multiplayer
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Post by Vigil on Mon May 21, 2012 4:08 pm

It's times like this I'm glad I don't give a shit about Halo any more.

I was real tempted to make a big reply, but honestly I came to the conclusion that would just exacerbate the problem.

Halo has been moving away from us since Halo 3. But unlike some people who's level of bile of change to what we perceive as canon has only risen, I frankly have reached the point where it's counter productive and fruitless.

343 has made some really shoddy Halo Products, but they also published some fairly good works. Whatever happens to Halo 4, they'll be things I'll like and things I'll detest. Such is the fate of a new Halo game not made by the original developers.

Halo finished with Halo Reach, which I liked canon problems and all, and whatever happens next is being aimed at the next generation of Halo fans.

Look, I get you're making valid criticisms of the content released about this game, but at this point does it really matter? This isn't a game aimed at us. This is the springboard for a whole new trilogy and it's only link to the old is the main character and Cortana. We're no longer really a factor in this anymore.

Our time is over, time to move to greener pastures and new adventures.

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A still more glorious dawn awaits.
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way

You can fight like a Krogan, run like a Leopard
But you'll never be better than Commander Shepard
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Post by Angatar on Mon May 21, 2012 4:33 pm

1.That sentence made sense until the last clause, where you jumped from "I forgot about it" to "I can therefore just ignore it". Whether you watched it or not, Halo Legends happened, and it was bad. You can't just ignore it because you aren't into the medium they chose to release that filth.
1. I can ignore it because I did not watch it, just as if I brought up Grasslands or Cole Protoccol you would not (should not, rather) post about it.

2.I don't remember there being a huge demand for a graphics update for a decade old game. It was well received among fans, because no one minds a graphics update, but it still reflects poorly that they charged $40 for what probably should have cost $20 or $30. And I never said the Reach updates reflected poorly on the company, but rather than they were irrelevant.
2. I must have spent more time talking about HCE than you, then, because I certainly do. The price will be brought up laters.

3.
A) Halo: Combat Evolved ends with the Chief somewhere inside the galaxy, somewhere that it is possible to get there through normal travel by the Covenant or UNSC. Halo 3 ends with the Chief somewhere outside the galaxy, somewhere that it is impossible to get to through any kind of normal travel by either the Covenant or UNSC.
B) Halo: Combat Evolved ends with the Chief in a ship that has power and is capable of moving without being acted upon by an outside force. Halo 3 ends with the Chief on a ship that's been shorn in half, which can not move of its own volition, and likely has sustained too much damage to maintain power for any extended period of time.
C) Halo: Combat Evolved ends with the Chief in a ship incapable of FTL travel, but with various Covenant ships all capable of FTL travel present. Halo 3 ends with the Chief on a ship incapable of FTL travel, but in an area devoid of any such ships.
3.
A-As does Halo 3, with the ship drifting toward Requiem.
B- Doesn't matter, because Halo 3 shows that it didn't need to move under it's own power.'
C- Cortana states that they (MC and her) are the only survivors and that the entire Covenant Armada was obliterated. Covenant ships are not mentioned until First Strike.

Halo 3 shows that Halo 4 was very likely to happen, while Halo CE doesn't really give ground to Halo 2.

4.The Flood is a global conflict. In games like this, global conflicts do not need to be explored. The Flood are still present on four other Halo installations, but those installations have failsafes to prevent the Flood from escaping. The only way for the Flood to escape would be outside interference, and with the two largest sentient organizations fully aware of the threat, it is very unlikely that an unwitting outside would interfere. Frankly, the UNSC and new Covenant probably have access to tons of Forerunner data at this stage, having captured Installation 005, and can probably locate the remaining rings and destroy them from a distance without much issue.
4. Their origin has not been explored, and the Halos are spread throughout the Milky Way. To my knowledge, the Halo series takes place (other than the Ark and Forerunner installations) entirely within the Orion Belt. If memory serves correct, in the Haloverse there are four or five more arms of the galaxy that could contain a threat.

5.And so despite the fact that Halo has changed for the worst, since it isn't going back, I should just lay down and die? I'm just supposed to say "well, my opinion doesn't matter, so I guess I'll just enable Microsoft further by eating up all their shit." While I'm at it, I might as well join a fraternity, buy every Call of Duty game, starting with Call of Duty 4, unlearn everything I've ever learned about storytelling or game design, and say that I'm a hardcore gamer because I play the one franchise that everyone else plays.

Fuck that.
5. Protip, move on. There are other games out there to play. Hell, make your own, as you wanted to. It seemed like a good idea.

6. It must not have involved as much betrayal by the developer you had trusted, then. I'll assume you didn't care about books, didn't remember the books, and therefore can just ignore the books. Who cares if Bungie has two or three perfect setups for their game which they have dictated to an author, and then go out of their way to use an overly convoluted story that literally directly contradicts all three books! Who cares if any fan who gave two shits about the Haloverse beyond multiplayer was just told by Bungie that, not only did they not matter, but that Bungie would go out of their way to ruin their experience at no gain to gameplay!
6. I don't believe that Nylund was told what to write, more that he created good stories. Nylund made a very good Haloverse, but ultimately it is Bungie not Nylund that dictates canon, and they retconned it. Get over it.

7. Obvious strawman is obvious.
7. You make strawman in this post, so don't act like your argument is superior.

8. You and I both know that it was not an open story. It was stated by Bungie to be a closed story. Halo: First Strike was a somewhat unlikely escape that we can accept because of plot armor, but any escape from the ending of Halo 3 will be so contrived so as to completely suspend all disbelief.
8. I take it you don't play on Legendary then.

9. There is a very big difference between making small changes to gameplay, and completely redoing gameplay to clone Call of Duty. When you stamp the name "Halo" on a game, one expects that the gameplay will be at least somewhat consistent. Starting on a level playing field and the strategy between knowing where weapons are and when to go for them was the core gameplay. I would argue that, except when a game's core gameplay is terrible, a developer should NEVER change the fundamental core gameplay. And, from a wider perspective, I heavily disapprove of all games trying desperately to be more like Call of Duty.
9. The equipment in Halo 3 was around before Call of Duty really took off. It was a good idea, but the uses were so limited. Halo Reach and Halo 4 expand on this, but now that Call of Duty is popular, it's bad. They took a gimmick in 3 and turned it into an actual feature in Reach and 4.

10. False dilemma. You're pretending like Halo Reach and Halo CEA were the only two possible ways to approach a game. And, again, you're heavily modifying my argument. It isn't wrong to release the same game with the same gameplay, characters, and story. It is wrong to charge nearly full price for this game. Or are you saying that EA Sports is a legitimate developer that makes real games?
10. 1/3 off the price is not nearly full price, and it includes a map pack so you could even say that it's actually only $30, half the price of a new game.

11. Look, if you're not even going to try and be honest, then just fuck off, Ang.
11. I guess we'll see in winter how much complaining is done between you and Ring about the smallest of details.

12. Aloysious bull
12. drag complaining about the cover pissed me off because it's a super small detail that you wouldn't really notice unless you were looking for it. Before that, I was completely reasonable, even then I was being reasonable. I didn't threaten anyone or do anything to censor anyone.


13. You're either blatantly lying or stupid then, Ang, because we just discussed how they're radically altering multiplayer to be more like Call of Duty. Does that not count as gameplay?

And more importantly, I have not passed any judgment on the game as a whole, other than to cite that I am cautious of it.
13. Seems exactly like Reach, but with some unlocks.

14. What's troubling about the story so far? Crashing on a planet seen in the last game doesn't break canon or logic, what's the problem?


15. So wait, as far as art is concerned, the look of the enemies and weapons is superficial? Because, while I admit that art in itself is superficial, within art, the look of enemies and weapons is pretty much the main thing. The only other major art aspect is the landscape, which I consider a lot more superficial than character and weapon design.
15. Take the Mk14 for example. They took an old design (the M14) and modernized it and now it looks like a different weapon. Same thing with the BR55 to the BR85.

16. posters
16. Third page has several new complainers, including yourself.

Also, you're tired of my strawman arguments... Then go on to use on. I do not think this game is going to be the second coming of christ. I have made two posts in this thread that were close to positive and on Halo 4, the first "Other than -forgot-, I could deal with it" and "I like." The first is neutral, the second is a very simple statement. I have said that you should wait until the game is in your hands to judge it, but I guess that's serious censorship. You'll have to wait seven whole terrible months to complain. Oh no.

17. There are two core aspects of a game, just as there are two core aspects of a novel or movie. In all three, these are plot and flow. In novels, flow translates to word choice and tone. In movies, flow translates to graphics and cinematography. In games, flow translates to gameplay. A good novel has both good flow and good plot. The same goes for good movies and good games. There are mediocre movies that just have good flow or just have good plot, but a good movie has both. The same can be said of games. Halo CE was good because it had both good flow and good plot. Halo 2 and Halo 3 were alright because they had good flow and ok plot. Halo Wars was bad because it had ok flow and bad plot. Halo Reach was mediocre because it had good flow and bad plot. You can separate flow and plot all you want, but at the end of the day, both matter.
17. You put too much emphasis on the story. Story can be dropped and you'll still have a really fun game, but if you drop gameplay you might as well watch a movie if you're only going to have story. Most of your complaints have been about the canon, which really has nothing to do with how good the game is.

18. First of all, Halo Wars was on the same console as Halo 2, Halo 3, and Halo Reach, so all four games had the same limitations. As we saw in the e3 2007 announcement, gameplay and graphics both could have been better. Secondly, I have never been any more or less focused on the story. Halo Wars never changed that. It's gameplay was just as bad as its story, and I pointed that out as well. However, in a complex series, it is a lot easier to screw up story than it is gameplay. Therefore, it is easier to identify flaws, and these flaws can more easily be numerous.
18. Halo 2 was on the original xbox, but he problem with Halo Wars is the controls. Even if it could look as good and be as engaging as a PC RTS, the controls will still be a pos and you will never have good gameplay.

19. Which is true. But, again, I am not judging the game as a whole. I am judging the parts that I have seen. I am not making a composition fallacy, here. I am saying that the parts I have seen have been unimpressive, and that is all.
19. Perhaps now you'll say that, but your first couple posts in the thread don't really support this.

Sorry for the weird scheme.

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Post by dragoon9105 on Mon May 21, 2012 4:57 pm

I can understand the DMR coming back, It still will be outclassed against the BR no matter the explanation, In Halo weaponry is Power before Accuracy with the Exception of the Sniper rifle Which has both. The DMR in reach always felt like the Battle rifle's older drug addict brother.
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Post by CivBase on Mon May 21, 2012 5:40 pm

KrAzY wrote:Rot is entitled to massive-multiquote when people attack him

I much prefer that to him posting 5 posts with 8 points each like Ringleader used to
Yah, but then people multi-quote him back and things just get out of hand.

I don't care what you think of Halo 4; I just wanted to remind you guys that you can doubt something all you want based on past failings, but it should still be judged individually regardless of those failings. I don't see Rot as particularly guilty of this, although comments made by some people on this thread have demonstrated that sort of immaturity.

You can hate the game all you want - I'd just prefer you not share that hatred unless you're being intelligent about it (and, of course, speculation is fine as long as it's only speculation).

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Post by Gauz on Mon May 21, 2012 6:00 pm

I don't recollect making any illogical conclusions about the game. I simply claimed that I do not believe I will like the game based on what I've seen.
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon May 21, 2012 6:29 pm

CivBase wrote:One more giant mutli-quote and I'm locking this thread Mad
Heh, no. The multiquotes are an effective way to debate, and are fun to read besides.

KrAzY wrote:also, Rot I agree with almost everything you are saying. Guys, he isn't judging the game, he is judging what is released. which IS fair. There is a HUGE game design department at my school and we have had similar discussions. if they dont want critical discussion then they shouldn't do mediocre work.
Precisely.

KrAzY wrote:as for gameplay, I do not like the gameplay style of CoD, I think that having a similar system for halo will destroy it, especially in multiplayer
Don't really care about multiplayer as much. I'm of the opinion that, so long as one Halo game has classic-ish multiplayer that's currently supported, 343i can experiment.

I'm a little apprehensive that 343i decided to experiment in the way of unlockable gameplay features...

Vigil wrote:Look, I get you're making valid criticisms of the content released about this game, but at this point does it really matter? This isn't a game aimed at us. This is the springboard for a whole new trilogy and it's only link to the old is the main character and Cortana. We're no longer really a factor in this anymore.

Our time is over, time to move to greener pastures and new adventures.
So... Any idea what those greener pastures and new adventures might be? I'm hungry for the next big thing.
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Post by KrAzY on Mon May 21, 2012 6:39 pm

well I personally dont play games any more, I only have 3 or so installled on my computer and my xbox hasn't been hooked up in months. I'm with Vigil in that I really dont have anything vested in the halo universe any more. It is just sad to see something I once found really important and interesting become something unrecognizable. But at least I will always have Halo CE to fall back on when I need it
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Post by Lord Pheonix on Mon May 21, 2012 8:01 pm

You can send me the xbox if you want Krazy, I'll take it off your hands for ya.

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Post by KrAzY on Mon May 21, 2012 8:18 pm

well, my roomate sold his for 80 bucks, I might try for the same
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon May 21, 2012 8:20 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:My computer detected a sizable mass of electrons flowing out from Arizona, and I rushed to the Crimson Flame. My hopes were rewarded, for Rot has posted yet another one of his world-famous multiquotes!

With the deteriorating state of society and the Internet at large, it's all I can do to maintain any sort of presence here. :p

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:But I wuved ODST...

And I disagree with the gameplay part. As far as I'm concerned,
Reach>Halo:CE>ODST>Halo 3>Halo 2.

And in the far distance, speculated upon by radio astronomers but never directly observed, Halo Wars cries itself to sleep every night.

I probably understate Reach's gameplay because I was so damn busy rushing to the hospital after Bungie stabbed me seventy seven times in the back. I only played through the single player campaign twice, and never had the opportunity to play multiplayer. From what I recall, the gameplay looked really solid, though I recall initially complaints about balance in the objective-based gametype, whatever it was called, but the story just went so far out of its way to piss off fans like myself that it was hard to focus on the gameplay.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Again, partly because it's anime (And all anime needs giant mechs/swordfights/mecha starfighters!), partly because they were only x-teen minutes long and therefore harder to write a self-contained story for, partly because the anime studios weren't interested in anything but swordfights and explosions, partly because 343i was letting the studios have a medium-long leash.

And yeah, the studios were supplied with art assets and the Halo Story Bible. 343i also approved of the general outlines of the stories.

Sadly, outside of this forum, Halo fans are surprisingly amenable to mechs in their Halo. Personally, I blame the tainting influence of Gundam and Transformers cartoons. It is quite possible that I'm the only one who was not indoctrinated at a young age.

Don't get me wrong, those anime studios were responsible for the ilk they produced as well, but in a designer/director-producer relationship, the designer/director is supposed to reach for the stars and the producer is supposed to smack him on the head and say "no, that's stupid." For example, Lucas had to fight for every inch in the original Star Wars trilogy, but went totally unchallenged in the prequel trilogy. We all saw how that turned out. The difference is that Lucas had no real producer for the prequel trilogy because he had achieved god status, but these anime studios had a producer who had ultimate and final say.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Unimpressive, yes. Worth picking up from the library/on the cheap just to read Nylund's story.

I intend to pick up the rest of the Halo novels just to have them eventually.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:*Shrugs*
Compared to ODST, I didn't hear too many people complaining about the cost

ODST probably should have released at $40, and Halo CEA at $20.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:(Not nearly as many as I heard complaining that they can't have their classic multiplayer with modern XBox Live support)

Wait, Halo CEA didn't add Xbox Live Support to Halo CE multiplayer?

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:and as for the bug patch, not sure if it would have been possible to patch the original Halo. Was there even a framework for doing that?

I don't really know. I would assume so, since Xbox systems are essentially mediocre computers.


Very Happy

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:I wouldn't say that the Battle Rifle had 'considerable spread' in Halo 3, but the DMR is much more accurate in Reach than the BR was in Halo 3.
The point is that, as far as accuracy goes, MA5<BR<DMR, and their spread have been exaggerated to demonstrate this.

I don't have too much trouble with this, because the spread has always been exaggerated in Halo so each gun can fit a comfortable niche. If it's fun to play, I ignore the fact that the MA5 acts like it has a 3-inch barrel, or that the plasma pistol can now overload vehicles.

Fair point. I don't like it when they mess around with gun canon, but at least this sort of thing can be justified with gameplay.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:True. My point with the weapons is that, even though you and I don't like it, the weapons in Halo's sandbox have been driven less by canon, and more by the necessities of gameplay.

The Battle Rifle has always handled like this. The Spartan Laser was introduced earlier than you think. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

I've never been a fan of the Spartan laser. ONI seemed intent on cutting their losses with the SPARTAN-II project, so why would they design an unwieldy chemical laser system that only a SPARTAN-II could effectively operate?

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:I don't think so.

Even if an assault rifle would be of limited use inside a frigate, the IAC was outfitted to support and supply ground troops, hence the tanks, drop pods, and Pelicans. The lack of an assault rifle is a pretty big hole in the armory.
Also, what about the deployment to New Mombassa? Shouldn't Marines who weren't stationed on the In Amber Clad have assault rifles?

Like I said, it was a stretch, and I don't recall Bungie getting much love for the removal of the assault rifle in favor of the submachine gun.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Sorry, man, but the ones who were unwilling to acknowledge the books were Bungie. 343i has at least released Data Drops that smooth out some of the bumps between Reach and The Fall of Reach.

Fair point. Could you link me to those, by the way? Anything that can help heal the backstabbing I received...

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Mind if I get feedback for that on HBO?

Feel free. I doubt I have an account there anyway. I'm interested in what they have to say about it.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Still a little too much credit.
Remember the data boxes? All these neat little hints into the Halo timeline. The writer KNEW the canon. Not as well as we did, but more than the typical Halo player.

If you want to know why the story was so bad, it was because Graeme Devine is a decent programmer, but a sucky writer who could only imitate what had come before.
If you want to know why they ended up in a micro-mini-not-really-Dyson-Sphere, it's because Bungie told ES to go screw around in a secluded corner of the universe so they don't screw up the canon, and ES took them literally.
If you want to know why we got mechs and transforming artillery units, it's because those things are cool, and ES has always wanted a cool tank in one of their games.
If you want to know why the Pillar of Autumn was still flying around and why Spartans have shields, chainguns, and Splasers, it's because the timeline on those things was never established, and because they're cool.
If you want to know why the Elites were wasp-waisted and why the Arbiter was channeling Sauron, it's because Blur only deals with what's cool, and their artists thought the Elites looked "hokey".

Isn't Blur doing stuff for Halo 4 too, though? I thought I remember someone saying their were doing CGI stuff for Halo 4.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:My only quibble is that nothing was 'dictated' to Nylund. He had the Halo Bible, but he also had plenty of leeway in writing. And he did good work. Mostly.

Practically the entire plot of Fall of Reach was established in the Halo Story Bible. They basically handed Nylund the plot and said "flesh this out and make the universe awesome." And Nylund was like "yes...I will make this the awesomest universe ever." With First Strike, Nylund was giving the task of getting John-117 and Johnson back to Earth after the events of Halo without it being terribly gimmicky, as well as explaining why all the other Spartans are dead. With Ghosts of Onyx, Nylund was given the task of creating the SPARTAN-III project, justifying and explaining it, and then setting it up such that a group of SPARTAN-IIIs would be available for Halo Reach.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:In fact, I believe that Staten once stated at a convention "Please direct all questions about time-bending Slipspace crystals to Mr. Nylund."

Nylund did do an amazing job of it, though.

CivBase wrote:One more giant mutli-quote and I'm locking this thread Mad

Why?

Angatar wrote:1. I can ignore it because I did not watch it, just as if I brought up Grasslands or Cole Protoccol you would not (should not, rather) post about it.

I was never much of a fan of Cole Protocol, but it was a decent book. I felt like Staten tried too hard to emulate Nylund's style of writing, but we got a lot of interesting information about the Covenant. I haven't read Grasslands, so I won't say that it was bad. I have, however, brought up that Evolutions was not terrible.

Angatar wrote:3.
A-As does Halo 3, with the ship drifting toward Requiem.

And if the game took place well outside the reach of Covenant and UNSC and this was about John encountering a totally alien race, I wouldn't really mind. But there seems to be a lot of content that suggests that both the Covenant and UNSC will be present.

Angatar wrote:B- Doesn't matter, because Halo 3 shows that it didn't need to move under it's own power.'

But how he gets from Requiem on the edge of space to somewhere where he encounters other UNSC and Covenant forces is to be seen.

Angatar wrote:C- Cortana states that they (MC and her) are the only survivors and that the entire Covenant Armada was obliterated. Covenant ships are not mentioned until First Strike.

Cortana mentions that an entire Covenant armada was obliterated. However, neither of them had actually witnessed this obliteration. It was an assumption based on the initial scans. Point stands that it was a location that the Covenant knew about and would inevitably investigate. It was sort of the pinnacle of Covenant religion, after all.

Angatar wrote:Halo 3 shows that Halo 4 was very likely to happen, while Halo CE doesn't really give ground to Halo 2.

Halo 3's legendary ending isn't even necessarily canon, just as Halo CE's legendary ending wasn't canon. And it was just as easily acceptable that it was just a reference to Marathon, or to a game that would take place eons after Halo 3 (since that's how long it would take him to drift back towards the galaxy).

Angatar wrote:4. Their origin has not been explored, and the Halos are spread throughout the Milky Way. To my knowledge, the Halo series takes place (other than the Ark and Forerunner installations) entirely within the Orion Belt. If memory serves correct, in the Haloverse there are four or five more arms of the galaxy that could contain a threat.

But again, they didn't need to explore it. More importantly, John did not need to be involved in any future games. I'm not against games set after Halo 3, I'm just against John being used as a figurehead to get sales.

Angatar wrote:5. Protip, move on. There are other games out there to play. Hell, make your own, as you wanted to. It seemed like a good idea.

I intend to, but that doesn't mean I can't critique issues I notice with content released about a game series I used to care about.

Angatar wrote:6. I don't believe that Nylund was told what to write, more that he created good stories. Nylund made a very good Haloverse, but ultimately it is Bungie not Nylund that dictates canon, and they retconned it. Get over it.

I've spoken with Nylund, Angatar. I am well versed in who was and was not involved in creating those books. The three original novels by Nylund served specific purposes. Nylund had to operate within very specific parameters.

Angatar wrote:7. You make strawman in this post, so don't act like your argument is superior.

Such as? You're entire argument is based on the strawman that I'm saying Halo 4 will suck, which I have never done.

Angatar wrote:8. I take it you don't play on Legendary then.

The legendary ending of Halo 3 did not imply anything. And, given previous legendary endings, it is not necessarily canon.

Angatar wrote:9. The equipment in Halo 3 was around before Call of Duty really took off. It was a good idea, but the uses were so limited. Halo Reach and Halo 4 expand on this, but now that Call of Duty is popular, it's bad. They took a gimmick in 3 and turned it into an actual feature in Reach and 4.

You missed the part where they're using a weapon unlock system. I didn't mind the equipment. That was a minor change to gameplay. It integrated perfectly with current gameplay and improved upon it.

Angatar wrote:10. 1/3 off the price is not nearly full price, and it includes a map pack so you could even say that it's actually only $30, half the price of a new game.

Right, except that it wasn't 1/3 of the price, it was 2/3 of the price. Halo CEA retailed for $40, which is 2/3 of $60 (or 4/5 of $50, though that's no longer standard on console).

Angatar wrote:11. I guess we'll see in winter how much complaining is done between you and Ring about the smallest of details.

Don't you dare compare me to Ring.

Angatar wrote:12. drag complaining about the cover pissed me off because it's a super small detail that you wouldn't really notice unless you were looking for it. Before that, I was completely reasonable, even then I was being reasonable. I didn't threaten anyone or do anything to censor anyone.

You need to go back and reread the thread, then.

dragoon9105 wrote:Hey cool they bothered to include "Forward onto dawn" on the ship being sucked in though it doesn't exactly look like it.

Translation: I am pleased that they added the name, but I'm curious why the ship looks weird.

dragoon9105 wrote:I was just saying it was cool. Its a bit odd looking but hell its cover art.

Translation: I wasn't saying it was bad, just weird. And it's cover art, so who cares?

Angatar wrote:No, it's not. Criticizing every single thing from the game, even the damn cover art, is too far. Caution is understandable, but complaining about cover art? Really?

Translation: RAGE!

Drag wasn't complaining about the cover art. He thought it was cool. He just thought the ship looked funny. It was inconsequential, and he said so. You and Civ both blew up at him.

Angatar wrote:13. Seems exactly like Reach, but with some unlocks.

I haven't played Reach. Does it alter the core gameplay? Do players spawn with better weapons if they've played for longer? Does it remove the core strategy that made Halo multiplayer what it is?

Angatar wrote:14. What's troubling about the story so far? Crashing on a planet seen in the last game doesn't break canon or logic, what's the problem?

The part where the UNSC and Covenant are there?

Angatar wrote:15. Take the Mk14 for example. They took an old design (the M14) and modernized it and now it looks like a different weapon. Same thing with the BR55 to the BR85.

You ignored my point. You said that, as far as art was concerned, player/enemy models and weapon models are not important. What else is there in the art category, other than the background?

Angatar wrote:16. Third page has several new complainers, including yourself.

Ok, let's look at the third page, then.

[*]Felix posts that there is still hope
[*]Ring continues to complain
[*]TNine debates with Ring
[*]Ring continues to complain
[*]TNine debates with Ring
[*]Ring continues to complain
[*]who the fuck is squirrelboy?
[*]P points out that squirrelboy is an idiot
[*]Ring continues to complain
[*]PiE expresses excitement
[*]Noc debates with Ring
[*]TNine debates with Ring
[*]Rot expresses displeasure
[*]TNine makes a neutral post
[*]Ring continues to complain

Here, we have eight unique posters. Of these eight, three express displeasure, four express pleasure, and one expresses indifference. Overall, we now have nineteen unique posters, of which six have expressed displeasure, nine have expressed pleasure, two have expressed neutrality, and two have expressed indifference. Of the six, two are clearly idiots. Let's keep going.

[*]Ring continues to complain
[*]Ring continues to complain
[*]Rot complains about the state of the industry
[*]Ring continues to complain
[*]drag debates with Rot
[*]Rock makes a joke about F3AR
[*]Felix debates with Rot
[*]TNine debates with drag
[*]Felix comments on Rock's joke
[*]NT makes a neutral post
[*]Rock hearts Felix
[*]TNine complains about the state of society
[*]drag complains about the state of the Internet
[*]Ring continues to complain
[*]Ring continues to complain

Here, we have seven unique posters. Of these seven, two express displeasure, four express pleasure, and one expresses neutrality. Overall, we still have nineteen unique posters, of which six have expressed displeasure, nine have expressed pleasure, two have expressed neutrality, and two have expressed indifference. Of the six, two are clearly idiots. Through page fifteen, Rasq and Gauz express displeasure, RX expresses pleasure, Grey expresses displeasure (mostly at those awful shoulders), V expresses displeasure, Rasq changes his opinion to tentative hope, some random guy named BALLINMONK expresses displeasure, Rasq and various others tell Ring to fuck off, Carlos expresses pleasure, and Arty expresses pleasure. Overall, that's twenty-seven unique posters, of which ten have expressed displeasure, thirteen have expressed pleasure, two have expressed neutrality, and two have expressed indifference. Of the ten expressing displeasure, two are clearly idiots and another is some random troll. So, again, you've heavily overstated the negativity in the thread. Ring trolled a ton at the beginning, but no one cares about him.

Angatar wrote:Also, you're tired of my strawman arguments... Then go on to use on. I do not think this game is going to be the second coming of christ. I have made two posts in this thread that were close to positive and on Halo 4, the first "Other than -forgot-, I could deal with it" and "I like." The first is neutral, the second is a very simple statement. I have said that you should wait until the game is in your hands to judge it, but I guess that's serious censorship. You'll have to wait seven whole terrible months to complain. Oh no.

You exploded at everyone for being critical of a game because someone made an offhanded comment that the cover art looked weird, but that it didn't really matter. You proceeded to tell anyone who had a negative opinion of the game to get out of the thread. This is not the behavior of someone who is neutral towards the game.

Angatar wrote:17. You put too much emphasis on the story. Story can be dropped and you'll still have a really fun game, but if you drop gameplay you might as well watch a movie if you're only going to have story. Most of your complaints have been about the canon, which really has nothing to do with how good the game is.

If a game is not going to take story seriously, it should not pretend to be serious about story.

Angatar wrote:18. Halo 2 was on the original xbox, but he problem with Halo Wars is the controls. Even if it could look as good and be as engaging as a PC RTS, the controls will still be a pos and you will never have good gameplay.

It's not impossible to have good RTS controls on consoles. It's just harder. But the same can be said of FPS. FPS controls are better on PC, but we see plenty of successful FPS on console.

Angatar wrote:19. Perhaps now you'll say that, but your first couple posts in the thread don't really support this.

My first couple posts in the thread were that I was disappointed that they were doing Halo 4 with John, rather than leaving him be and exploring other angles. Hell, most of them were about the state of the game industry, rather than Halo 4 specifically. My posts later in the thread were more regarding my opinion of Reach than Halo 4.

CivBase wrote:Yah, but then people multi-quote him back and things just get out of hand.

How is this out of hand? The length of a post does not indicate whether or not the argument is out of hand. It is the content. In this regard, multiquoting has no relevance to whether or not an argument is out of hand.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:So... Any idea what those greener pastures and new adventures might be? I'm hungry for the next big thing.

At this stage, all our hope lies with Valve.

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Post by A_Bearded_Swede on Mon May 21, 2012 9:34 pm

Huh, i would get involved in debate over this game, but..... reasons.

Im buying this game, hell i'll prolly buy the limited edition just because i can.

I honestly dont care a lot for story in games, cause you can still have fun without one at all. IE Dodgeball, Pacman, Pong, etc. As long as the gameplay is good it'll be fun to play. Story is like dry wall for a house. You dont need it to hold up the roof, but it's nice to have. I'm not saying story is useless, its just not as necessary compared to gameplay in what makes a game fun.

So as long as Halo 4 has fun gameplay, which it'll most likely have, cause you know... its Halo. =D Pizza and CO-OP shall ensue on release. =)

OH and Rasq for some up and coming stuff take a look at...
-Darksiders 2 the first one was underated upon release, its actually really solid.
-Batman Arkham series I know its not brand new, but its turning into a solid series that deserves a look at
-Borderlands 2 if the sequel is anything like the original it'll be a great buy to play with 3 other friends.

I honestly would stay away from valve or at least buy cheap. They tend to be overrated....
=/

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Post by dragoon9105 on Mon May 21, 2012 10:33 pm

The next person who says valve is the best hope for gaming society needs a reality check, If the Continental army took ten years to win the battle of Yorktown we would all still be sipping tea. Razz

Your 'Hope' Lies with Indi developers that the better Game companies try to learn from (and the bad ones ignore), The same as its always been.
Id was considered indy on its founding considering it was a group of friends that programmed Doom and Quake. Which games like Halo, Halflife and even Cod wouldn't exist without. The AAA developer is supposed to take what people like from Indy games and Mods and give it a AAA Polish, Valve isn't the only Company that does that you know. (Rockstar, Epic and Bethesda i can name right off the top of my head).
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Post by Nocbl2 on Mon May 21, 2012 10:57 pm

Valve is the best hope for gaming society.

Had to.

but yes, I can't wait for Hawken and from what it seems, that needs to be where the game industry goes.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue May 22, 2012 3:11 am

Valve is hardly overrated. They may take a long time to release things, but they know it and make fun of themselves for it. However, when they do release content of any sort, it is pretty much always well thought out and well designed. And of course you buy Valve games cheaply. Steam has sales at very regular intervals. I seem to recall Portal being free for a few months a few summers ago when Valve began porting to Mac. I seem to recall TF2 being free altogether now. And even before, Orange Box included Half-Life 2, Episodes One and Two, TF2, and Portal and it wasn't even as much as a single console game.

There are other companies, of course. Rockstar and Epic seem to be more of console developers, which doesn't interest me much, and I'm tired of Bethesda games being so glitchy and buggy that they are literally unplayable. If Bethesda wants to call itself a AAA developer, then it should go get a QA team that isn't blind and/or blind drunk 24/7.

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Post by CivBase on Tue May 22, 2012 8:50 am

Rataretilbo wrote:
CivBase wrote:Yah, but then people multi-quote him back and things just get out of hand.

How is this out of hand? The length of a post does not indicate whether or not the argument is out of hand. It is the content. In this regard, multiquoting has no relevance to whether or not an argument is out of hand.
Because I'm too lazy to read a giant multi-quote >.<

To Ang's Side:
People can judge a game based on whatever they want. They can dislike Halo 4 because 343i screwed up how the Covys look or because the Revenant obviously looks just like a Warthog.

To Rot's Side:
We haven't seen much about the game and some of the things we've seen (namely MC's amor) have changed already. You can suspect that Halo 4 will be a poor game based on the past failings of 343i or whatever personal opinions you have about the game's concept, but don't make it a goal to prove that suspicion right.

[/arguent]?

(I like how everyone's come on in the past few pages and exclaimed how they don't hate the game)


Last edited by CivBase on Tue May 22, 2012 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by dragoon9105 on Tue May 22, 2012 8:57 am

Bugs are the best part about a Bethesda game, its like a scavenger hunt, Gotta experience them all before they are patched. To each his own i guess, New Bug-Vegas was a blast for me though Very Happy (haha- I'm serious it was). And you only need to know one command to fix practically any bug in a Bethesda game, ~ then type "Reset Actors" (Command may vary game to game), Fixed!

Also, Yes i think most of us actually don't care or are taking the smart wait and see approach, I don't think anyone in here is saying it will be the second coming, Personally i hope Halo 4 will be good because it will give me an excuse to be interested in the series again if it is. If Halo 4 comes out and its so bad it makes Halo Wars look decent I'm not buying it, simple as that.
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Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue May 22, 2012 9:21 am

CivBase wrote:(I like how everyone's come on in the past few pages and exclaimed how they don't hate the game)



That's because you said that everyone was saying they hate the game and they were defending themselves by saying that not a single person has proclaimed hatred of it.

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Post by CivBase on Tue May 22, 2012 9:57 am

I never said that everyone was saying they hate the game. I said - multiple times, all-caps, and italicized - that some people were prematurely judging the game based on characteristics that don't describe the game's quality.

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Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue May 22, 2012 10:10 am

Well when you say "some people on this site" and "when you people" it's kind of hard for people to figure out who you are speaking to directly and they try to defend themselves.


Most of your comments sounded like a wide generalization of the sites forum goers as a whole, not say 2 people.

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