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Post by Gauz on Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:09 am

ReconToaster wrote:
Not at all. Halo, for example, completely took the idea of "halo's" from Larry Niven. That's okay. Reusing an entire story line on the other hand, is not okay.
While they may be similar stories, I don't think that it is an exact copy, or was intended to be. It really isn't fair, that Fern Gully made a movie with that plot first, because now it'll be compared to that movie. I think Avatar does the plot more justice, rather than Fern Gully.
ReconToaster wrote:
Really? When they first introduced that giant flying thing, did you not immediately know that he would end up flying it? When they first introduced the military general guy, did you not immediately know that he was going to be a heartless ass hole? When wheelchair man first met that girl, did you not immediately predict that they were going to fall in love, and that he was going to switch sides and help them fight back?
I think most of that was unavoidable... This happens a lot in stories, predictability. I don't think matters so much. Its nice to be suprised, but the movie was still really good.


Gauz wrote:

I shouldn't say ugly. I mean to say that they looked... silly. When you think of Aliens, do you think of perfectly humanoid beings with blue pigments and flat ass noses? It's not a matter of what we imagine aliens to look like. I just think the ones in Avatar look dumb.
It'd be hard for a human to fall in love with the squid face of a elite. And because i've never seen an alien, I wouldn't know how they looked. Just like how we don't know what color dinosaurs were.
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Post by CivBase on Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:17 am

ReconToaster wrote:Really Civ? It felt more to me like a glorified Fern Gully.
Never seen Fern Gully. However, is it fair to say the movie sucks because a kids movie from 15 years ago had a similar story at the very basic level? Are you suggesting that Avatar's story has the same effect on you as Fern Gully's? Even if the basic idea is similar, nothing else about it is.

ReconToaster wrote:In Fern Gully, a lumber jack stumbles upon a tribe of nymphs who live in trees.
In Avatar, a guy who has nothing to do with the people who are killing the natives becomes part of a research team. They can control bodies that are the same as that of the natives and intend to use them to negotiate.

ReconToaster wrote:He eventually becomes one of them, and falls in love with one of their women. Later into the movie, the Nymphs discover Red "X" marks some of the trees.
In Avatar, Jake initially helps figure out how to destroy the natives. He eventually becomes one of the natives and falls in love with one of their women. The brother fights him at every turn, and Jake is also racing against the clock to negotiate.

ReconToaster wrote:The ex-lumber jack tells them what they mean, and they suddenly hate him. After that, he re-unites with the nymphs, and helps them fight back against the evil, Earth raping lumberjacks.
In Avatar, when negotiations can't be done, the natives found out that Jake had not told them about the plan to destroy them and they hate him (for an actual reason). He is then put in jail, but breaks out and returns to try and help. Unfortunately, the natives still hate him and he gets abandoned as the natives are attacked. He then does something big, earns their trust back, and unites them to fight back.

ReconToaster wrote:Sound familiar?
Not really. But who knows, maybe all of that is in Fern Gully.

ReconToaster wrote:The movie "Atlantis: The Lost Empire" Also follows that same basic formula.
Huh, this seems like a reoccurring theme in stories...

Romeo and Juliet...
Eragon...
Atlantis...
Fern Gully...
Pocahontas...

Maybe it's because you're being a little too basic? Nah, that's crazy talk.

duddoodoo wrote:Pocahontas in space with a battle at the end.
Pocahontas? They fought for different reasons and John never became a native. The only thing similar was the fact that the English were invading for resources (why else would they invade?) and characters from each side fell in love (cuz that's never happened before...)

duddoodoo wrote:The story line was dull and predictable, the movie had to rely on good CGI and testosterone pumping for appeal.
Testosterone pumping? There were two very short kissing scenes, and it was pretty obvious that there wouldn't be any actual nudity a few minutes after seeing the first Na'vi.


Last edited by CivBase on Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:23 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Toaster on Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:19 am

Gauz wrote:It'd be hard for a human to fall in love with the squid face of a elite. And because i've never seen an alien, I wouldn't know how they looked. Just like how we don't know what color dinosaurs were.

That's my point. You were trying to suggest that my opinion of what Aliens should look like are unrealistic, when the idea of a humanoid alien is pretty unrealistic as it is.

It's not a matter of what's realistic. It's a matter of what looks good, and I don't think the aliens in Avatar look good.

Gauz wrote:I think most of that was unavoidable... This happens a lot in stories, predictability. I don't think matters so much. Its nice to be suprised, but the movie was still really good.

I think it's a sign of un-clever dialog.

Rasq wrote:The technology exhibited by the humans, the complex morality and characterization, the superb dialogue, and the irreproachable camerawork make this an instant favorite of mine, perhaps my most favorite movie of all.

Complex morality and characterization? Killing indigenous people is bad. Saving them is good. The natural world is more important than money. Avatar hardly send any complex messages. It's a movie about how corporatism is greedy and evil. We've all heard it countless times before.

I'm disappointed that you would consider this to be on par with your other favorites. I'd say the opening to Apocalypse Now alone is 100x better than Avatar.

Civ wrote:Testosterone pumping? There were two very short kissing scenes, and it was pretty obvious that there wouldn't be any actual nudity a few minutes after seeing the first Na'vi.

He wasn't being literal. He was talking about all the explosions and fight scenes.

As for everything else you said... congratulations. There are small details which differentiate Avatar from Fern Gully.



And my point isn't that a movie should be critically punished for not having an entirely original story line. My point is that Avatar should not be praised for originality in storytelling, as it has none.
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Post by Dud Doodoo on Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:49 am

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Dud Doodoo wrote:Pocahontas in space with a battle at the end. Ground breaking and amazing? Hardly.
So... the CGI flew right by your head?
No, but I don't consider visuals to be a huge influence on the quality of the movie. I say that storyline accounts for at least 50 percent of the movie. Visuals, presentation, characters, and everything else get shoved together in the other 50 as I don't consider any one of them to be significant factors that determine the quality of the movie.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
As for the story, I doubt there's another movie out there that was nearly as daring and audacious as this one. A lot of people compare it to Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves (Which James Cameron acknowledged as an influence) and Ferngully (I hope to GOD nobody else had to suffer through that) because of the story elements. Again, how many movies out there are 100% original? I'm looking at my shelf of favorite movies, and only a few stick out as completely original. Red Dawn, the Prestige, Forrest Gump, and the Final Cut... That's it.
I don't see how you interpret my statement of Avatar being completely unoriginal as me saying that a movie has to be absolutely original to be good. I am not against movies using elements from others, but I am against movies completely reusing an existing, generic storyline, with hardly any alterations.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
The reason Avatar is 'So unoriginal' is because it's based ON OUR OWN HISTORY. Hell, we can call it more original than most because, unlike so many of the events in history, the Natives WON the battle. Ala "Little Bighorn" and the battle of Isandlwana.

Apocalypse now, V for Vendetta, A Bridge Too Far, and Flags of Our Fathers have been disqualified because they borrow upon historic events or previous stuff that wasn't very original to begin with.
When it comes to historical movies, for obvious reasons I don't count the story as a factor. However, Avatar is a movie portraying a fictional future even, and in no way should it be considered historical.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
And, again, Avatar is completely incomparable when it comes to camera work, CGI, and scope of battle.
As I said above, I don't think this is a deciding factor of a good movie.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Dud Doodoo wrote:The story line was dull and predictable, the movie had to rely on good CGI and testosterone pumping for appeal.
Dull and predictable? I found myself drawn into it actually. As for predictable, while certain elements were predictable, (I mean, come on! You saw the preview and drew your own conclusions! And how many movies keep you guessing 100% of the time?) there was a lot of stuff that ended up surprising me when it happened.
Like? I can't think of any major event in the plot that I didn't already know would happen. Again, I don't argue that a good movie has to keep you 100% unpredictable and keep you guessing 100% of the time, I argue that you can't accurately guess exactly what will happen next 100% of the time in a good movie.

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:22 am

So dud, you are saying that this movie was a waste of your ten dollars? If not then why the hell are you complaining. I loved the movie. It was great.

The way they had you switch sides was a good point. You start the movie on the humans side and the Na'vi are bad, then you somehow end up on the Na'vi's side and the humans are bad.

Give it up with the "we have seen this before". Every movie EVERY movie uses elements from other movies and historical events. This one did the same. It pulled elements from different areas of history and it made a great story. Just because it was similar to a few other movies that makes it bad? NO. I though it was original taking into consideration how EVERY SINGLE OTHER MOVIE IS MADE.

I loved the movie, I thought it was a great worth of the 20 dollars I spent to see it with a friend. I would greatly pay to watch it again. Just accept that fact that the movie was good and stop trying to pick apart everything or making the movie so general you could compare it to the nightmare before christmas.

Also, by just watching the previews you can determine how a movie will play out. Thats what a preview is for. Get a friend who has never seen a preview for Avatar watch the movie, then ask him the same questions.
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Post by Dud Doodoo on Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:29 am

CivBase wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:Really Civ? It felt more to me like a glorified Fern Gully.
Never seen Fern Gully. However, is it fair to say the movie sucks because a kids movie from 15 years ago had a similar story at the very basic level? Are you suggesting that Avatar's story has the same effect on you as Fern Gully's? Even if the basic idea is similar, nothing else about it is.
It is fair to say that the story was mediocre because it was ripped off of not only Fern Gully, but Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves, and a good number of other movies that predate it. It isn't just the basic idea, it's the story as a whole. Avatar and Fern Gully are obviously not the same movie, but they do have the same story, more than just on a basic level.

CivBase wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:In Fern Gully, a lumber jack stumbles upon a tribe of nymphs who live in trees.
In Avatar, a guy who has nothing to do with the people who are killing the natives becomes part of a research team. They can control bodies that are the same as that of the natives and intend to use them to negotiate.
Is there a variance in detail? Of course, but if you were attempting to match the part of the story that Toaster was referring to, you did a terrible job. It would go more like...

In Avatar, a man who used to be one of the people who are now killing the natives, gets lost in the woods while in his avatar. He is rescued by a native girl that leads him to her tribe which lives in a tree.

CivBase wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:He eventually becomes one of them, and falls in love with one of their women. Later into the movie, the Nymphs discover Red "X" marks some of the trees.
In Avatar, Jake initially helps figure out how to destroy the natives. He eventually becomes one of the natives and falls in love with one of their women. The brother fights him at every turn, and Jake is also racing against the clock to negotiate.
In Avatar, Jake is being taught how to be one of them, and falls in love with one of their women. Later in the movie, the natives discover that the humans are cutting down their trees.
CivBase wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:The ex-lumber jack tells them what they mean, and they suddenly hate him. After that, he re-unites with the nymphs, and helps them fight back against the evil, Earth raping lumberjacks.
In Avatar, when negotiations can't be done, the natives found out that Jake had not told them about the plan to destroy them and they hate him (for an actual reason). He is then put in jail, but breaks out and returns to try and help. Unfortunately, the natives still hate him and he gets abandoned as the natives are attacked. He then does something big, earns their trust back, and unites them to fight back.
In Avatar, the ex-marine tells them that the humans are coming to destroy their home, the tree, and they suddenly hate him. After that, he reunited with the natives and help them fight back against the evil humans.

CivBase wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:The movie "Atlantis: The Lost Empire" Also follows that same basic formula.
Huh, this seems like a reoccurring theme in stories...

Romeo and Juliet...
Eragon...
Atlantis...
Fern Gully...
Pocahontas...

Maybe it's because you're being a little too basic? Nah, that's crazy talk.
Or maybe because it's a generic story.
CivBase wrote:
duddoodoo wrote:Pocahontas in space with a battle at the end.
Pocahontas? They fought for different reasons and John never became a native. The only thing similar was the fact that the English were invading for resources (why else would they invade?) and characters from each side fell in love (cuz that's never happened before...)
John was accepted as part of their tribe. The foreigners were invading, disrespecting and destroying the forest which the natives feel has a spiritual force, one that they are all connected to. John ends up falling in love with on of the natives, and is shown their ways, turning his back on his original people.

CivBase wrote:
duddoodoo wrote:The story line was dull and predictable, the movie had to rely on good CGI and testosterone pumping for appeal.
Testosterone pumping? There were two very short kissing scenes, and it was pretty obvious that there wouldn't be any actual nudity a few minutes after seeing the first Na'vi.
When I say testosterone pumping I don't just mean sex appeal. Defiance! Fighting! Explosions! Impossible odds! Barely clothed girls!

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Post by Divine Virus on Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:12 am

You have to realize that almost every single movie/video game/book etc out there can be traced back to roots from another movie/video game/book etc.

Every single movie has something in it weather it be the story, the visuals, the characters the setting what have you. It can all be traced back to something.

Just look at District 9. That movie was amazing. (to me and maybe some others) But, the story isn't that original. I mean what was going on in the movie is what we (humans) have been doing to each other for years. But the fact that it was Aliens that we were doing it to made it that much more original. But even then, I bet you could still trace that back to something else as well. I think you get my point, I'm just using D-9 as an example.

So basically, all I'm saying is just because you've heard/seen the story before, doesn't mean it's a bad movie. Of course it's all your opinion, but that's just how I feel.

But I have not even seen Avatar yet, so I can not give any opinion on it yet. What I typed up above was just my side on the story debate. So, yeah. Smile
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Post by Toaster on Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:14 am

Leafy wrote:The way they had you switch sides was a good point. You start the movie on the humans side and the Na'vi are bad, then you somehow end up on the Na'vi's side and the humans are bad

Wait, you started the movie thinking the Na'vi are bad? I thought it was more like "THEYS SITTIN ON OUR DIAMONDS!"

Leafy wrote:Also, by just watching the previews you can determine how a movie will play out. Thats what a preview is for. Get a friend who has never seen a preview for Avatar watch the movie, then ask him the same questions.

Going into it, I'd actually never seen any trailers for it. Just screenshots, and hearing James Cameron talk about 3d for hours at E3. And no, a trailer should intrigue, and make you want to see a movie, but it should not tell you the entire story.

Rock wrote:Just look at District 9. That movie was amazing. (to me and maybe some others) But, the story isn't that original. I mean what was going on in the movie is what we (humans) have been doing to each other for years. But the fact that it was Aliens that we were doing it to made it that much more original. But even then, I bet you could still trace that back to something else as well. I think you get my point, I'm just using D-9 as an example.

Right, but I thought District 9 was pretty awful as well.

Rasq wrote:Apocalypse now, V for Vendetta, A Bridge Too Far, and Flags of Our Fathers have been disqualified because they borrow upon historic events or previous stuff that wasn't very original to begin with.

That's not the point at all. Although Apocalypse now and V for Vendetta borrow from history, they create their own stories out of that material. Apocalypse now isn't just a story about the vietnam war, without any creative influence. Saving Private Ryan isn't just a movie about WWII. Vietnam and WWII aren't used as the stories, they are used as settings, and I see nothing wrong with that.
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Post by Gold Spartan on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:29 am

When you all bitch about it being like Pocahontas, you're talking about the shitty Disney movie I assume.
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Post by CivBase on Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:42 am

ReconToaster wrote:As for everything else you said... congratulations. There are small details which differentiate Avatar from Fern Gully.
Small? I used them to summarize a three hour movie into a paragraph. That's not small.

ReconToaster wrote:And my point isn't that a movie should be critically punished for not having an entirely original story line. My point is that Avatar should not be praised for originality in storytelling, as it has none.
Anyone with a camera and a pencil can write a good story. It's how they carry out the story that matters.

duddoodoo wrote:It is fair to say that the story was mediocre because it was ripped off of not only Fern Gully, but Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves, and a good number of other movies that predate it. It isn't just the basic idea, it's the story as a whole. Avatar and Fern Gully are obviously not the same movie, but they do have the same story, more than just on a basic level.
Really? Because I outlined a slightly more detailed level for Recon, and it seemed entirely different. Of course, I can't do that with Fern Gully, but I'm sure that would only strengthen my case if I could.

duddoodoo wrote:Is there a variance in detail? Of course, but if you were attempting to match the part of the story that Toaster was referring to, you did a terrible job. It would go more like...

In Avatar, a man who used to be one of the people who are now killing the natives, gets lost in the woods while in his avatar. He is rescued by a native girl that leads him to her tribe which lives in a tree.
Way to try and get rid of my point by re-writing my post. The situation is different.

Humans know about the natives and are fighting with them. Jake is part of a diplomacy team.

duddoodoo wrote:In Avatar, Jake is being taught how to be one of them, and falls in love with one of their women. Later in the movie, the natives discover that the humans are cutting down their trees.
Again, same as before. You're taking it back to the basic level.

duddoodoo wrote:In Avatar, the ex-marine tells them that the humans are coming to destroy their home, the tree, and they suddenly hate him. After that, he reunited with the natives and help them fight back against the evil humans.
Okay, now you're just being stupid. You just skipped a good hour of the movie.

duddoodoo wrote:Or maybe because it's a generic story.
It is, at the basic level. Can you say, though, that you liked Fern Gully's story as much as Avatars? I'm talking about as a whole, not just a one-sentence summary.

duddoodoo wrote:John was accepted as part of their tribe. The foreigners were invading, disrespecting and destroying the forest which the natives feel has a spiritual force, one that they are all connected to. John ends up falling in love with on of the natives, and is shown their ways, turning his back on his original people.
Again, are you trying to insist that Pocahontas' story was as good as Avatar's, even though you and Recon are the only people that didn't think it was awesome. And you called me a moron...

duddoodoo wrote:When I say testosterone pumping I don't just mean sex appeal. Defiance! Fighting! Explosions! Impossible odds! Barely clothed girls!
There's hardly any fighting; explosions only happen in the fighting; the odds were only slim in the last battle; and I already covered the clothing thing. That leaves defiance (which is kind of key to the story).


Since Avatar is apparently a direct rip-off of Fern Gully, I'll address this directly.

Do you realize how many movies there are out there? Thousands upon thousands. Each has a story. With thousands upon thousands of stories, isn't it pretty likely that some are similar to others? Especially at such a basic level. The destruction of Earth has long been a major subject for movies, and the Romeo-Juliet style relationships have been hits since the Renaissance. Still, the only other movies you guys could bring up that shared these themes were Pocahontas and Fern Gully, each well over a decade old. Who's to say Fern Gully wasn't a ripoff of Pocahontas?

Originality is important, but it's very uncommon for stories to be completely new at the level you are attacking. I could say Halo is a ripoff of Battlezone. If you look at their stories at the same basic level, they are, indeed, almost identical. Is Battlezone's actual story anything like Halo? Not really, but it just shows you that when you bring things down to such a vague level, similarities are very common.

Let's apply this to something other than stories: Gameplay. I could say that Halo is a complete ripoff of Wolfenstein 3D. Both are about running through areas and shooting everything that pops up until you finally reach the end. Baddies get progressively more difficult and weapons get more interesting. They're the same.

My point is, you cannot judge a something entirely based on it's basic idea. It's how that idea is carried out that makes it great.

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:50 am

Avatar is not about killing the trees. Avatar is about getting the unubtanium or whatever it is called under the tree. It just turns into a war after the destroy the home that is above the largest deposit.

You CAN NOT make the plot of a movie so general and simple that way it can be compared to something else. I have already stated this. If you make something simple enough you will be able to compare it to anything. Avatar did use elements from history, so did Pocahontas and fern gully. Avatar has enough differences when you actually look at it at finer details that you know they did not copy fern gully, just used the same elements. Which is what you have been bitching about the entire time.

In the end you have to ask yourself, was it a waste of your money and did you enjoy the movie. If you did then the movie accomplished its goal and thats that. If not then why are you complaining about it so much. What are you attempting to do, make the ones who did like the movie not like it anymore.

Simply say I did not like the movie because it reminded me of a movie for 6 year olds watch. Don't try to bitch and complain about it and force your views on everyone else. Honestly I think you guys are older than that.
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:56 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Gauz wrote:More people would rather watch Avatar over "Fern Gully", so I don't think that matters.

Which is why I called it "glorified." Be that as it may, I thoroughly enjoyed Fern Gully as a child.
Quite sadly, most of the things I found 'enjoyable' as a child, I've spent countless hours walling off as an adult. Fern Gully, the Star Wars prequels...

ReconToaster wrote:
Gauz wrote:So like Rasq said, all movies have to be totally original?

Not at all. Halo, for example, completely took the idea of "halo's" from Larry Niven. That's okay. Reusing an entire story line on the other hand, is not okay.
Ferngully: A lumberjack helping to clear-cut a rainforest is accidentally shrunk by a fairy, finds himself a hit with the rest of the fairy clan after exposing them to some of his rock&roll (A very painful scene, mind you) In the meantime, the Clear-Cutter 1000 cuts down the wrong tree and is infused by the spirit of Hexxus (A pretty cool villian, admittedly) The Fairy clan then joins forces to stop the machine... I can't quite remember HOW it was done, although I seem to remember Batty (a bat with it's sonar replaced with Radar, by evil human scientists. No, really!) flying in with the pint-sized lumberjack, dropping him off on the windshield, scaring the operators out, and then shutting it down by turning the key off. Deprived of the pollution and destruction needed to sustain itself, Hexxus is weakened, and the fairies are able to capture it and the CC-1000 in a giant tree once more. The lumberjack is returned to full size, plants a seed he was given, and walks off with the operators of the CC-1000, who are amazed as the tree grows to full size in seconds.

In short, Avatar has three story points in common with Ferngully: a male protagonist who gets taken to the same level as the indigies, the huge clear-cutter machines (Bulldozers in Avatar) and quasi-mystical (at least in the case of Avatar) energy running through the rainforest. Hell, I'll even throw in the setting as similar, and the two movies are still pretty different.

1: The focus is on the Na'vi as indigenous people endangered because they're on the receiving end of the Corporation. Whereas the fairies in Ferngully were the forest, the Na'vi are comparable to Native Americans, Africans, or whoever happen to be sitting over a pile of gold and good land without the artillery to defend it.
2: The protagonist has a completely different mission, acting as a liaison between the tribes. The dynamic is MUCH different, and
Spoiler:
in the end, the main character of Avatar joins the aliens, a completely different outcome from Ferngully.
3: Ferngully was environmentalist, with the message of "Humans are mean to Nature because we don't know what we're hurting". The point of Avatar was not only about the dehumanizing aspects of the way we use our technology, but "humans are bastards". Doesn't matter HOW you sugarcoat it, as a student of history, I completely back that sentiment up.
4: Hexxus? I'm just saying...
5: Humans completely and totally obliterated the Na'vi home, an intent and event completely different from what happened in Ferngully.

All the two share are an environmentalist/humanist message set in a jungle, where it's Corporation Versus Nature. And even then, you're stretching it.

ReconToaster wrote:
I would hardly say 'extremely predictable'.

Really? When they first introduced that giant flying thing, did you not immediately know that he would end up flying it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreshadowing

ReconToaster wrote:When they first introduced the military general guy, did you not immediately know that he was going to be a heartless ass hole?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBad

I'd say I was more surprised about who would be teaming up with the Natives.

ReconToaster wrote:When wheelchair man first met that girl, did you not immediately predict that they were going to fall in love, and that he was going to switch sides and help them fight back?
Well, given that that was in the trailers and everything, I'd be more surprised if you DIDN'T pick up on it.

ReconToaster wrote:
Gauz wrote: 1) Thats your opinion, I thought they looked exotic.
2) When you think of aliens, do you think of beautiful beings?

1) of course it's my opinion....
2) I shouldn't say ugly. I mean to say that they looked... silly. When you think of Aliens, do you think of perfectly humanoid beings with blue pigments and flat ass noses? It's not a matter of what we imagine aliens to look like. I just think the ones in Avatar look dumb.
I'll be the first to admit that purity of form was shot to hell here, but considering that this was a parable about what's happened to Native Americans and Africans, I'm kinda glad that they didn't look like Prawns. Also, can anybody else point out where that head-tail-nerve thing was used elsewhere? As far as I can tell, it's completely original.

Dud Doodoo wrote:
I don't see how you interpret my statement of Avatar being completely unoriginal as me saying that a movie has to be absolutely original to be good. I am not against movies using elements from others, but I am against movies completely reusing an existing, generic storyline, with hardly any alterations.
Dude, it's not even close to Ferngully or any of it's competitors. The closest (storywise) it gets is to Dances with Wolves.

Dud Doodoo wrote:Like? I can't think of any major event in the plot that I didn't already know would happen. Again, I don't argue that a good movie has to keep you 100% unpredictable and keep you guessing 100% of the time, I argue that you can't accurately guess exactly what will happen next 100% of the time in a good movie.
I can think of several times when I was surprised.
I never expected Flygirl and the Doc to die. It genuinely surprised me when they were too late to save her.
I was genuinely surprised at how many close calls the Colonel had without dying.
I was genuinely surprised that the final battle wasn't at Yddrasil. I thought that the Scorpions and Vulture would have to fight their way through.

ReconToaster wrote:
Leafy wrote:The way they had you switch sides was a good point. You start the movie on the humans side and the Na'vi are bad, then you somehow end up on the Na'vi's side and the humans are bad

Wait, you started the movie thinking the Na'vi are bad? I thought it was more like "THEYS SITTIN ON OUR DIAMONDS!"
"F'ing savages. We give them medicine, we try to educate them, and we try to resettle them, and what do they do? Shoot at us with 500 pound-draw bows!

ReconToaster wrote:
Rasq wrote:Apocalypse now, V for Vendetta, A Bridge Too Far, and Flags of Our Fathers have been disqualified because they borrow upon historic events or previous stuff that wasn't very original to begin with.
That's not the point at all. Although Apocalypse now and V for Vendetta borrow from history, they create their own stories out of that material. Apocalypse now isn't just a story about the vietnam war, without any creative influence. Saving Private Ryan isn't just a movie about WWII. Vietnam and WWII aren't used as the stories, they are used as settings, and I see nothing wrong with that.
Apocalypse now was essentially "Heart of Darkness" rewritten so it took place in the Vietman War. V for Vendetta was a rewriting of an old comic book, which cut out all the stuff that made it good so they could criticize the Bush Administration. Unoriginal, but popular, and both are among my favorites.

Civbase wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:And my point isn't that a movie should be critically punished for not having an entirely original story line. My point is that Avatar should not be praised for originality in storytelling, as it has none.
Anyone with a camera and a pencil can write a good story. It's how they carry out the story that matters.
I resent that.
I write my stories WITHOUT a camera.

And has anyone else actually SEEN Dances with Wolves?
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Post by Gold Spartan on Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:01 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:And has anyone else actually SEEN Dances with Wolves?
I have...
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Post by Felix on Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:05 pm

Gold Spartan5 wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:And has anyone else actually SEEN Dances with Wolves?
I have...

Do people actually dance with wolves?
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Post by Divine Virus on Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:34 pm

This works so well here. The first thing he adresses is so true. Razz

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/1333-Avatar
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Post by Toaster on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:12 pm

RockaHolicGameR wrote:This works so well here. The first thing he adresses is so true. Razz

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/1333-Avatar

Never seen a single episode of South Park. Never seen Dances with Wolves.

Moving on, I'm sorry, but the fact that Avatar's story is unoriginal has very little to do with why I didn't like it. I found it boring, and kinda dumb. I wasn't entertained by it. At one point, I actually left the theater to go walk outside in the snow for a few minutes. The only thing that made it worth the 8 bucks I spent on the ticket was making fun of it with my friends when it was finally over.

The CGI was impressive, but that's about its only redeeming quality. I thought the rest of it felt very... over-dramatic and silly. The movie takes itself way too seriously.

On a side note, what's with all the hate for Titanic? Quite possibly Jame's Cameron's worst film? What? Not enough explosions and Space marines for you?

I suppose you could turn this all on my head and talk about how Titanic is just a recycling of Romeo and Juliet, but as has already been stated, underlying, basic themes and story archetypes do not have to be entirely original. The difference with Titanic is all in the presentation. I do not think Avatar has good presentation.


Last edited by ReconToaster on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Divine Virus on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:21 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
RockaHolicGameR wrote:This works so well here. The first thing he adresses is so true. Razz

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/1333-Avatar

Never seen a single episode of South Park. Never seen Dances with Wolves.

You don't need too. You get the point right?

Anyways, Titanic sucks and If you don't like Avatar then...uhh...fine. Not like there's a rule that says you "have" to like it. So move on already.
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Post by Toaster on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:24 pm

Rock wrote:You don't need too. You get the point right?

Anyways, Titanic sucks and If you don't like Avatar then...uhh...fine. Not like there's a rule that says you "have" to like it. So move on already.

Why does Titanic suck? Bold statements are bold.
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Post by CivBase on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:25 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Civbase wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:And my point isn't that a movie should be critically punished for not having an entirely original story line. My point is that Avatar should not be praised for originality in storytelling, as it has none.
Anyone with a camera and a pencil can write a good story. It's how they carry out the story that matters.
I resent that.
I write my stories WITHOUT a camera.
Oops, meant to say "or" instead.

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Post by Divine Virus on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:29 pm

ReconToaster wrote:

Why does Titanic suck? Bold statements are bold.

Stupid debate on internet is stupid.

OMG SOMEONE SAID TITANIC SUCKS ON THE INTERNET!!! I MUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!! Seriously why do you even care?

But I don't need to explain myself. I havent seen the movie in years. So even if I wanted to explain why I couldn't because I barely even remember the movies faults (and they were there) but I do remember when I saw it, I did not like it. I don't need some big explanation or reasons why I didn't enjoy.
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Post by Toaster on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:34 pm

RockaHolicGameR wrote:
Stupid debate on internet is stupid.

OMG SOMEONE SAID TITANIC SUCKS! I MUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS! Seriously why do you even care?

It was really more like me asking you to explain why you didn't like Titanic. Not really all that aggressive. '

And I care because I'm bored as hell, and I'm a fucking nerd. I care about these things. You don't go comparing Avatar to the Lord of the Rings, or Star wars, and expect me to be okay with it.
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Post by Divine Virus on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:36 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
RockaHolicGameR wrote:
Stupid debate on internet is stupid.

OMG SOMEONE SAID TITANIC SUCKS! I MUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS! Seriously why do you even care?

It was really more like me asking you to explain why you didn't like Titanic. Not really all that aggressive. '

And I care because I'm bored as hell, and I'm a fucking nerd. I care about these things. You don't go comparing Avatar to the Lord of the Rings, or Star wars, and expect me to be okay with it.

Well sorry it's hard to tell agressive from non-agressive in text.

Good explanation though on why you care. Make's sence to me. Razz
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:39 pm

CivBase wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Civbase wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:And my point isn't that a movie should be critically punished for not having an entirely original story line. My point is that Avatar should not be praised for originality in storytelling, as it has none.
Anyone with a camera and a pencil can write a good story. It's how they carry out the story that matters.
I resent that.
I write my stories WITHOUT a camera.
Oops, meant to say "or" instead.
Oh yeah? Well, I use a PEN!

ReconToaster wrote:
Rock wrote:You don't need too. You get the point right?

Anyways, Titanic sucks and If you don't like Avatar then...uhh...fine. Not like there's a rule that says you "have" to like it. So move on already.

Why does Titanic suck? Bold statements are bold.
Because of Leonardo DiCaprio.

TBH, I don't really feel one way or the other for the Titanic. It's not the sort of thing I like, but I also acknowledge that, if it weren't for the love story, it would be a movie about a boat sinking. Yep.

Anyhow, the presentation behind Avatar really worked for me. I guess it's all in what you like. IIRC, you didn't like "Raiders of the Lost Ark" because it was too slow-paced.

RockaHolicGameR wrote:This works so well here. The first thing he adresses is so true. Razz

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escape-to-the-movies/1333-Avatar
Wow. I expected a relentless tearing into the movie because of it's similarities to Dances with Wolves, but I was wrong. He got everything right.

As another note, "The Titanic" actually saved my bacon once. I was at a fancy dinner in Olympia, worrying about how to use all these forks...

"Eat from the outside fork in."

Eh, thanks, Mrs. Kinslet.
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Post by CivBase on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:47 pm

ReconToaster wrote:And I care because I'm bored as hell, and I'm a fucking nerd. I care about these things. You don't go comparing Avatar to the Lord of the Rings, or Star wars, and expect me to be okay with it.
Avatar has the third most recorded sales on day 1 for a December. It's just under I am Legend and Lord of the Rings. Razz

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Post by Toaster on Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:49 pm

Rasq wrote:I guess it's all in what you like. IIRC, you didn't like "Raiders of the Lost Ark" because it was too slow-paced.

I like Raiders of the Lost Ark. I just think that The Last Crusade is 100000000x better.

Temple of Doom, on the other hand, is trash. Razz

civ wrote:Again, are you trying to insist that Pocahontas' story was as good as Avatar's, even though you and Recon are the only people that didn't think it was awesome. And you called me a moron...

Dud and I are the ONLY people who didn't like Avatar? Well color me unique!

In case you weren't aware, a large group of people liking something does not make it good. There's a thing called mass Hysteria.
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