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Post by Ukurse on Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:42 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:What I admired most about Avatar was Cameron's attention to detail in creating the universe that the movie was set in. As one who wishes to design things of this nature, the work that must have gone into it was greatly appreciated by me. The story itself seemed somewhat predictable, but the universe itself more than made up for it.
Apparently Cameron made a full Na'vi language.
Rotaretilbo wrote:visual effects were not quite as good,
Hmm, strange, they are both done by Weta Digital.

BTW, NZ pride
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Post by Toaster on Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:35 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:Just got done watching District 9. Creativity and attention to detail was on par with Avatar, visual effects were not quite as good, but still pretty amazing, but the story was definitely better. Where Avatar felt like a movie, District 9 felt more real. Not to mention that the way the story is approached, it feels like there are no good guys, just bad guys and people that don't like the bad guys.

Oy, and here we go again.

The only thing that could have made District 9 feel "more real" was the mockumentary film style... which was really only utilized for the opening and ending of the film. If Peter Jackson had actually committed to that film style, I might have enjoyed the movie more.

The story itself was... well... shit. I like the premise of Aliens sort of stumbling upon Earth in some massive generation ship, without any real hostile plans in mind. What I didn't like was how little the humans seemed to care. I mean, in what world would the entire human race just sit by and let some trans-national corporation deal with the aliens? In what world would people care so little about FUCKING ALIENS VISITING EARTH!? I mean sure, there were a few protesters at one point... but really?

The fact of the matter is, the story wasn't even about the Aliens. It was just another movie about the evil white man exploiting some other race, and forcing them into camps. Honestly, I'm getting kind of tired of being force-fed the whole "TEH WHITE MAN IS EVILL" lecture.

On top of that, like avatar, the movie was brimming with extremely prototypical characters. The main character's wife and her bossman father seem like direct rip-offs of Penny and Charles Whitmore from Lost, and that Badass Australian soldier played that EXTREMELY TIRESOME "evil military man with no regard for morals" character.

Ultimately none of it really makes any sense either. That stuff he squirted into his face at the beginning was somehow turning him into one of them? Does that mean they were all some other race that got transformed by a similar process, or did they just... for some reason... have an energy source that also happened to turn them into aliens? Does that make sense? I'm confused.

The final 15 minutes are what really made me hate the damn thing. I mean... I already didn't like it... but the mech battle? Really? A fucking mech? wowowowowoowowowow. Also.. that cat food thing? Was that supposed to be a joke? I really couldn't tell...

I just did not like the thing one bit, and now that I've written this post... I realize that there are a lot of similarities between D9 and Avatar. I can't stand either of them. Please do tell me what's original about District 9, and what makes it such a fantastic movie. I'd love to hear it.

Oh, and there are good guys. The aliens were the good guys. It's pretty clear.
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Post by Divine Virus on Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:27 am

ReconToaster wrote:

Oy, and here we go again.

The only thing that could have made District 9 feel "more real" was the mockumentary film style... which was really only utilized for the opening and ending of the film. If Peter Jackson had actually committed to that film style, I might have enjoyed the movie more.

First off. Rot was just giving his honest opinion on the movie. He never gave any hostillity and you say "oy here we go again" like it's a challange or something and post some huge responce about how he and other people who like D9 are wrong. And don't say that's not what you did because that's all you did. You even say please tell me why it's good, like you think it's fact. To me, that's being a little bit of a douche.

Anyways I'm going to attempt to make replys to your arguments. So...(please note that I typed this without stoping so there will be some errors when it comes to grammer and or spelling, sorry)

About the whole mockumentary thing. I disagree with what you said. It fits very well with the way they put it in the movie. Think about it. As you said the movie basically begins and ends with the documentary style. But if you think about it, it should be this way. Because Wikus starts out just doing his job and being in this interview/documentary. But once the shit hits the fan and the mutation starts happening then it's as if the camera people are pulling away wondering what's happening. Because now all of a sudden Wikus is one of them and on the run. Now we get to see the real action. And then once the conclution starts to roll around then we get the after math of it all with the interviews of the people he knew and loved and finally see his outcome.
I hope I made that as clear as possibe. Sorry it's to explain what I mean in text. I hope you ca sorta understand what I mean.

ReconToaster wrote:The story itself was... well... shit. I like the premise of Aliens sort of stumbling upon Earth in some massive generation ship, without any real hostile plans in mind. What I didn't like was how little the humans seemed to care. I mean, in what world would the entire human race just sit by and let some trans-national corporation deal with the aliens? In what world would people care so little about FUCKING ALIENS VISITING EARTH!? I mean sure, there were a few protesters at one point... but really?


Again I disagree. The story was far from shit. It was complex because even through it was a pretty familira story we had no idea how it was going to turn out. Sure we had a good guess (familiar story/re-telling) but it was the way the outcome came and what happened on the way there. The story is also intelligent. Because It's dealing with some hard issues and even some issues that we as the audiance can relate to or at least have some kind of opinion or knowledge in. It make's you think, yeah how would the world react to Aliens coming to earth in such a way of desperation. Which bring's me to my next reason why I believe the story to be great. Realistic. At the end of the movie you then anwear your own question from before. "well, probably like that". Also about the "humans not caring thing" You have to realize that when the movie started it was about 20 years "after" the aliens first arrived. Who's to say that the whole world didn't react explosively. A lot could have happend in those 20 years. Perhaps the movie picks up once the situation is resolved and somebody decides that this MNU is to keep them there and take control etc etc. Why? Who knows? Maybe a sequel with anwear that.

ReconToaster wrote: The fact of the matter is, the story wasn't even about the Aliens. It was just another movie about the evil white man exploiting some other race, and forcing them into camps. Honestly, I'm getting kind of tired of being force-fed the whole "TEH WHITE MAN IS EVILL" lecture.

You know, I'm not going to sit here and say that that is not true when it pretty much is. That's the one thing I'll give you Recon. Not the white man thing but the whole it being about aliens thing. You almost could replace the aliens with something else and it could still work. Somewhat. I find that it would to difficult to get the same story and premise of what's happening if it wasn't aliens. To me, it being aliens makes more sence. Because when we see what we do to them in the movie. We see that that's just what we do to ourselves. And shows our true nature that no matter what the intelligent being, we will still treat it with hostillity and attemt to over power it. We do it now and have done it to our own specias for years. This much is obvious. And about the "white man bad" story. I say no. Because it wasn't "white man bad" it was "human bad." And nobody is force fedding you anything. I understand that your over-exaggerating, but that's not a good way to put it.

ReconToaster wrote: On top of that, like avatar, the movie was brimming with extremely prototypical characters. The main character's wife and her bossman father seem like direct rip-offs of Penny and Charles Whitmore from Lost, and that Badass Australian soldier played that EXTREMELY TIRESOME "evil military man with no regard for morals" character.

This argument can be made for pretty much any movie. Every movie has character traits that can be traced back to something. I'm sure your Lost characters are not the first to do what that do. And with the the badass Soldier. I mean, yes he is the generic soldier that takes his job to the extreme, but really, what else can he be? Wikus needed an enemy that represented the real enement that was MNU and what better representative then one that can actually meet him on the battlefield wheer the action takes place.

ReconToaster wrote: Ultimately none of it really makes any sense either. That stuff he squirted into his face at the beginning was somehow turning him into one of them? Does that mean they were all some other race that got transformed by a similar process, or did they just... for some reason... have an energy source that also happened to turn them into aliens? Does that make sense? I'm confused.

I think I have an idea on how to solve your confusion on that. So. Remember how the machines and weaponry of the aliens only worked for the aliens? Well, would it be completely far-fetched that there would some traces of Prawn DNA in the fuel and or whatever liquids may be in their machines? We don't know what kind of reaction a human would have with coming in contact with said DNA. Well, we do now. Their DNA must take over yours somehow and thus you become one. (i know nothing about biology, try not to think about it to much, it is a movie afterall) So, what I'm trying to say is or i should say my theory is, The Prawns DNA was in that fuel/mix of fluids because there machines only work for them so it needs some kind of reference back to which DNA is the is the rightfull holder. And maybe because of what Christopher (the main prawn) did in his experiments. That somehow altered it making it more potent. Plus overall theres no why to know how one's body will react to something until in actually happens.


ReconToaster wrote: The final 15 minutes are what really made me hate the damn thing. I mean... I already didn't like it... but the mech battle? Really? A fucking mech? wowowowowoowowowow. Also.. that cat food thing? Was that supposed to be a joke? I really couldn't tell...

Well I can't really argue this one because it's more personal preference then anything. There was nothing wrong with the mech battle it just comes down to weather stuff like that even hints on your interest rader. What I can say though. Was that they did a fantastic job with the finally battle. The battle get's more interesting and wanting to watch when it involves characters that you care for and can maybe even relate to. And I don't think the cat has any real meaning. It was just a means to have something that the Prawns desired and we would never want. And sence they were starving for food. Catfood is an easy food that we can see being everywhere and being mass produced.

ReconToaster wrote: I just did not like the thing one bit, and now that I've written this post... I realize that there are a lot of similarities between D9 and Avatar. I can't stand either of them. Please do tell me what's original about District 9, and what makes it such a fantastic movie. I'd love to hear it.

Well Recon, you have every right to not like D9. Nobody says that you have to like it. But, for one thing. You also have every right to voice your opinion, but do us D9 fans a favour and try not to make it sound like your opinion is fact. IF you didn't mean to then sorry but either way, you make it sound like it's fact even more when you say. "please tell me why it's good, i'd love to hear it". I know that this is text on the internet but I get the feeling that you think that any other opinion on D9 other then Nagative is false.

Then again. I hear you love to debate. Ok, that's all fine n' dandy but again. With the way you worded it in your post, it sure didn't seem like the start of a debate but rather just snother ineternet argument. Forgive me if that's not what you meant at all when posting. That's just the message I got.

So I'm sorry that I typed so much. I simply got so into disscusing the movie that I couldn't stop. That's how much I love it. Razz
Anyways, again sorry for how long it is. But please do realize that you will not change anyminds on here twords the movie. And that I never intented on changing your mind on the film wither but simply tried to bring resolution to your continuing arguments against the movie.

Have a nice day. Very Happy
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:33 am

ReconToaster wrote:Oy, and here we go again.

Teehee.

ReconToaster wrote:The only thing that could have made District 9 feel "more real" was the mockumentary film style... which was really only utilized for the opening and ending of the film. If Peter Jackson had actually committed to that film style, I might have enjoyed the movie more.

The documentary style did really add a different aspect to it, but it was used throughout the entire film. They just used cinametics more in the middle, since there were parts where they couldn't tell the story properly without it.

ReconToaster wrote:The story itself was... well... shit. I like the premise of Aliens sort of stumbling upon Earth in some massive generation ship, without any real hostile plans in mind. What I didn't like was how little the humans seemed to care. I mean, in what world would the entire human race just sit by and let some trans-national corporation deal with the aliens? In what world would people care so little about FUCKING ALIENS VISITING EARTH!? I mean sure, there were a few protesters at one point... but really?

And what would you suggest? The alien technology won't work for us, the aliens themselves aren't here for diplomacy. They showed up in need of food and shelter. They have no means to leave the planet; their ship doesn't work. There's really nothing to handle other than housing them. A trans-national corporation being funded and watched by various governments makes perfect sense. It ensures that no one government can take advantage of the situation, which is the primary concern of other governments.

ReconToaster wrote:The fact of the matter is, the story wasn't even about the Aliens. It was just another movie about the evil white man exploiting some other race, and forcing them into camps. Honestly, I'm getting kind of tired of being force-fed the whole "TEH WHITE MAN IS EVILL" lecture.

So you didn't notice that the black people were evil too? Or that the aliens were hardly saints themselves? The message had shit all to do with white people. It was about humans and our capacity for evil, but also that this wasn't really something that could be helped, because were the situation reverse, it is likely that the aliens would do the same to us.

ReconToaster wrote:On top of that, like avatar, the movie was brimming with extremely prototypical characters. The main character's wife and her bossman father seem like direct rip-offs of Penny and Charles Whitmore from Lost

I really don't see the connection.

In Lost, Penny and Charles are estranged because Charles doesn't like Desmond. Despite not liking him, Charles helps Desmond on occasion.

In District 9, Tania and Louis are not estranged, and Louis approves of Tania's marriage with Wikus. In fact, Louis promotes Wikus on his first day. However, when Wikus becomes valuable to the MNU as an experiment, Louis doesn't mind sacrificing him, and lies to Tania about what is going on. From here on out, Louis is against Wikus, and even turns Tania against him for a short time, before using her to find him later.

The only similarity is that there is a man who likes a woman whose father is influential. Something so vague that you could hardly attribute it to any particular show or movie.

ReconToaster wrote:and that Badass Australian soldier played that EXTREMELY TIRESOME "evil military man with no regard for morals" character.

I thought David made for a much better bad ass antagonist than the Colonel did in Avatar, simply because while David was clearly meant to be a bad ass military man, he didn't do or say anything over the top. And while this particular archetype is indeed used often, most of the other characters were not like this.

ReconToaster wrote:Ultimately none of it really makes any sense either. That stuff he squirted into his face at the beginning was somehow turning him into one of them? Does that mean they were all some other race that got transformed by a similar process, or did they just... for some reason... have an energy source that also happened to turn them into aliens? Does that make sense? I'm confused.

They're energy source seems to have many uses, since the Prawn talks about using it to fix him. One of its uses is to fuel the ship. However, I'd imagine that the effects it would have on someone when directly exposed to them in an environment where it wasn't being used correctly would be similar.

ReconToaster wrote:The final 15 minutes are what really made me hate the damn thing. I mean... I already didn't like it... but the mech battle? Really? A fucking mech? wowowowowoowowowow.

Of course, let's ignore the fact that unlike every other mech battle in existence, this one is more of a mech running away from the military, and every once in a while shooting at them. Wikus barely understands how to use the thing, and it really shows. And what's wrong with mechs, anyway? Certainly, they have no place in IPs like Halo, but here it made perfect sense. It was essentially just a power suit, similar to Iron Man, except a bit bulkier.

ReconToaster wrote:Also.. that cat food thing? Was that supposed to be a joke? I really couldn't tell...

It was a mix of a joke and a plot device.

ReconToaster wrote:I just did not like the thing one bit, and now that I've written this post... I realize that there are a lot of similarities between D9 and Avatar. I can't stand either of them. Please do tell me what's original about District 9, and what makes it such a fantastic movie. I'd love to hear it.

Did you read my post? I listed out the things that I liked about it.

ReconToaster wrote:Oh, and there are good guys. The aliens were the good guys. It's pretty clear.

I don't see how the prawn were a clear good guy. They are responsible for just as much crime as people are. When Wikus first shows up with the MNU to start evictions, a soldier gets blown apart randomly by a prawn. In the beginning, they talk about how the prawn will sometimes murder people just to take their shoes and stuff like that. The only good guys are the father, son, and Wikus, and this isn't clear until the very end. Prior to the end, Wikus is clearly not a good guy, and neither is the father. The father only helps Wikus initially because Wikus knows where the fluid is. The father essentially betrays him after it is obtained, saying he'll have to wait three years before he can be fixed, and Wikus in turn essentially gives the father over to the MNU and tries to fly off with is son. And then Wikus betrays the father again and leaves him for dead when he is escaping in the mech.

The other prawn are just as violent and evil as the humans in the film, and while the corporation is most certainly the main antagonist, this is only because they are the main force working against Wikus, not because they are particularly more evil than any other organization or peoples in the film.

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Post by KrAzY on Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:40 am

the cat food thing was because when you are trying to catch prawn... you bait with cat food...


the cat food was just a nod to the ACTUAL animal they they named the aliens after... which for those of you who don't know... are shrimp.... if you have ever eaten shrimp cocktail or BBQ shrimp (the big ones) then you've probably eaten prawn

commercial shrimp boats don't use bait... just large nets... but if you want to catch them recreationally... you chum the water with cat food first
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:55 pm

ReconToaster wrote:The story itself was... well... shit. I like the premise of Aliens sort of stumbling upon Earth in some massive generation ship, without any real hostile plans in mind. What I didn't like was how little the humans seemed to care. I mean, in what world would the entire human race just sit by and let some trans-national corporation deal with the aliens? In what world would people care so little about FUCKING ALIENS VISITING EARTH!? I mean sure, there were a few protesters at one point... but really?
Recon... This took place twenty years after the aliens showed up.
Not only did they show NO INTEREST in forming a hierarchy or improving their situation, but they were becoming a massive drain on resources, they were breeding out of control, and they were a problem. They clearly outstayed their welcome.

As the beginning made clear, it was a big deal when they showed up in 1982. But what usually happens when something can't live up to the hype?

ReconToaster wrote:The fact of the matter is, the story wasn't even about the Aliens. It was just another movie about the evil white man exploiting some other race, and forcing them into camps. Honestly, I'm getting kind of tired of being force-fed the whole "TEH WHITE MAN IS EVILL" lecture.
And did you not notice the Nigerians, or the black South Africans shunning the aliens and putting up apartheid-style signs?
It's not "White man is EVIL!" and neither was "Avatar". Instead, it fell squarely into the Humans Are Bastards trope, which is a HELL of a lot more true-to-life than "Humans are Special" or "Deep down, everyone is a really great guy."

ReconToaster wrote:On top of that, like avatar, the movie was brimming with extremely prototypical characters. The main character's wife and her bossman father seem like direct rip-offs of Penny and Charles Whitmore from Lost, and that Badass Australian soldier played that EXTREMELY TIRESOME "evil military man with no regard for morals" character.
Well, yeah, I'll give you that. Like Roger Ebert pointed out, the only one with a really fleshed-out character was Wikkus.

ReconToaster wrote: Ultimately none of it really makes any sense either. That stuff he squirted into his face at the beginning was somehow turning him into one of them? Does that mean they were all some other race that got transformed by a similar process, or did they just... for some reason... have an energy source that also happened to turn them into aliens? Does that make sense? I'm confused.
What's weirder, this plot point, or the fact that people are still asking about it when the movie spent half of the time HAMMERING HOME the fact that the aliens' technology and biotechnology was so completely interrelated, MNU couldn't even get the weapons to work when they took them apart completely. While I doubt the liquid was so simple as gasoline, I'm pretty sure it's an energy source, or some sort of biological key needed to activate the ship.

ReconToaster wrote: The final 15 minutes are what really made me hate the damn thing. I mean... I already didn't like it... but the mech battle? Really? A fucking mech? wowowowowoowowowow. Also.. that cat food thing? Was that supposed to be a joke? I really couldn't tell...
Yeah... a mech... inside a slum that was inundated with alien weaponry that MNU was still uncovering after twenty years of searching and seizing.
Cat food? What's more improbable, that cat food would contain a highly addictive substance (To the aliens) in the grease, or that they would get high off of the same stuff humans use?

ReconToaster wrote: I just did not like the thing one bit, and now that I've written this post... I realize that there are a lot of similarities between D9 and Avatar. I can't stand either of them. Please do tell me what's original about District 9, and what makes it such a fantastic movie. I'd love to hear it.
What, besides the whole premise of "Aliens show up with tech advanced enough to get them here, but suffer from a disease that prevented them from breaking out the mechanics and engineers, therefore relying on humans for support"?

Is there a crapload of other movies out there that I'm not aware of, which follow the same plot/premise?
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Post by Vigil on Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:00 pm

Just a little add on to Rasq's post before I counter Recon's points myself.

The only film I can think of that is close to District 9's story is Alien Nation, and that's only the bare bones of the story (Aliens come to earth and live amongst us) as that film is more a buddy cop movie than anything else.

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:26 am

ReconToaster wrote:The story itself was... well... shit. I like the premise of Aliens sort of stumbling upon Earth in some massive generation ship, without any real hostile plans in mind. What I didn't like was how little the humans seemed to care. I mean, in what world would the entire human race just sit by and let some trans-national corporation deal with the aliens? In what world would people care so little about FUCKING ALIENS VISITING EARTH!? I mean sure, there were a few protesters at one point... but really?

Having just rewatched the movie, I have a few more points to add, as I missed several key points (by showing up about three minutes late and missing everything before the title scrolls).

The movie actually makes it clear that when the aliens first landed, every government and corporation was breathing down South Africa's neck to do shit right. Furthermore, a private company was not in charge of the aliens. MNU was brought in 20 years later by census of multiple governments only to handle the resettlement of the aliens into District 10. Prior to this, I imagine MNU, as the world's second largest weapons manufacturer, helped supply the South African government with weapons to properly police the district.

Which is to say, pay better attention next time, because unless you missed the intro like I did, there's no excuse for drastically misinterpreting the entire backstory!

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Post by Gauz on Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:05 pm

ReconToaster wrote:

Oy, and here we go again.
No, here you go again...


ReconToaster wrote: The story itself was... well... shit. I like the premise of Aliens sort of stumbling upon Earth in some massive generation ship, without any real hostile plans in mind. What I didn't like was how little the humans seemed to care. I mean, in what world would the entire human race just sit by and let some trans-national corporation deal with the aliens? In what world would people care so little about FUCKING ALIENS VISITING EARTH!? I mean sure, there were a few protesters at one point... but really?
Like everyone else pointed out, if you had paid attention you'd know that it was set 20 years after the first landing, and the prawns were everything the South Africans did NOT want.

ReconToaster wrote: The fact of the matter is, the story wasn't even about the Aliens. It was just another movie about the evil white man exploiting some other race, and forcing them into camps. Honestly, I'm getting kind of tired of being force-fed the whole "TEH WHITE MAN IS EVILL" lecture.
I love how you exaggerate this all so much... You're not being force fed anything, and if you were you seem to be spitting it back out. Contrary to what most people think, it does fit the "Humans are Bastards" theme... but it focused on racism more. Not "Humans are Bastards" so much...

ReconToaster wrote: On top of that, like avatar, the movie was brimming with extremely prototypical characters. The main character's wife and her bossman father seem like direct rip-offs of Penny and Charles Whitmore from Lost, and that Badass Australian soldier played that EXTREMELY TIRESOME "evil military man with no regard for morals" character.
Becasue people realized that in media thats what we like. I'm not speaking for everyone but those characters just fit, and all movies don't have to be 100% original and D9 was certaintly not far from 100% original.

ReconToaster wrote: Ultimately none of it really makes any sense either. That stuff he squirted into his face at the beginning was somehow turning him into one of them? Does that mean they were all some other race that got transformed by a similar process, or did they just... for some reason... have an energy source that also happened to turn them into aliens? Does that make sense? I'm confused.
Like it was said, their technology can only operate with the prawn's themselves. The fluid, my guess, was a "key" or just some kind of fuel for the ship.... obviously...

ReconToaster wrote: The final 15 minutes are what really made me hate the damn thing. I mean... I already didn't like it... but the mech battle? Really? A fucking mech? wowowowowoowowowow. Also.. that cat food thing? Was that supposed to be a joke? I really couldn't tell...
I don't know why, but you seem to hate mechs! Quite honestly, I think they're nice. I'm going to guess you hate them because they're... overused? Well i'm here to tell you just because something is overused, doesn't mean it cant be done well. I thought it was a nice battle, the mech had cool technology. Now why would they have the mech? Well my speculation would be that because the government ran the thing for the first 20 years, then MNU took over for the moving, that MNU didn't get the chance to salvage everything in there. You could see how some weapons were being smuggled to the humans and being hid. That and I think the local African gang and the prawns took care to hide it from unwanted persons.

The cat food thing was rather random, but here's an explanation I found...
"Growing up in the area D9 is set in, Blomkamp was fascinated by the way people in the slums would cherish one particular food item. In real life this was a giant bag of cheese puffs. For the aliens in District 9 , it's cat food. However that decision wasn't made for the comedy factor, rather because co-writer Terri Tatchell would fish for actual prawns with cat food as the bait."

ReconToaster wrote:I just did not like the thing one bit, and now that I've written this post... I realize that there are a lot of similarities between D9 and Avatar. I can't stand either of them. Please do tell me what's original about District 9, and what makes it such a fantastic movie. I'd love to hear it.

There you go thinking originallity is the only thing that makes movies good. What about... plot? If a movie is totally original but had a god awful plot, would it be an A+ for you?
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Post by CivBase on Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:20 pm

Wouldn't this be better suited for a District 9 thread?

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Post by Toaster on Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:15 pm

Rock wrote:First off. Rot was just giving his honest opinion on the movie. He never gave any hostillity and you say "oy here we go again" like it's a challange or something and post some huge responce about how he and other people who like D9 are wrong. And don't say that's not what you did because that's all you did. You even say please tell me why it's good, like you think it's fact. To me, that's being a little bit of a douche.

Eh, rot and I have a healthy history of playful conflict and debate. It's all good.

Gauz wrote:No, here you go again...

Well I got about 5 other people to argue with me about it... so I'd say "here we go again" is a pretty accurate phrase.

Rot wrote:The documentary style did really add a different aspect to it, but it was used throughout the entire film. They just used cinametics more in the middle, since there were parts where they couldn't tell the story properly without it.

The film was advertised mainly with excerpts using that documentary style. I really enjoy that style of filming, and seeing is so sparsely deployed was disappointing.

Rot wrote:And what would you suggest? The alien technology won't work for us, the aliens themselves aren't here for diplomacy. They showed up in need of food and shelter. They have no means to leave the planet; their ship doesn't work. There's really nothing to handle other than housing them. A trans-national corporation being funded and watched by various governments makes perfect sense. It ensures that no one government can take advantage of the situation, which is the primary concern of other governments.

Well I would suggest talking about the impact that the aliens had on the human race from a psychological standpoint. I mean... if aliens just showed up one day, just about every religion on earth would fall apart, astronomers would flip out, we'd be backwards engineering the hell out of the space ship...

Rot wrote:So you didn't notice that the black people were evil too? Or that the aliens were hardly saints themselves? The message had shit all to do with white people. It was about humans and our capacity for evil, but also that this wasn't really something that could be helped, because were the situation reverse, it is likely that the aliens would do the same to us.

Aren't those black people merely the result of 150 years of European imperialism? And the Aliens were only acting with such hostility because MNU WAS SHOVING THEM IN CAMPS!!!

And no, the aliens probably wouldn't do the same to us, seeing as they don't even understand the concept of property rights.

Rot wrote:In District 9, Tania and Louis are not estranged, and Louis approves of Tania's marriage with Wikus. In fact, Louis promotes Wikus on his first day. However, when Wikus becomes valuable to the MNU as an experiment, Louis doesn't mind sacrificing him, and lies to Tania about what is going on. From here on out, Louis is against Wikus, and even turns Tania against him for a short time, before using her to find him later.

The only similarity is that there is a man who likes a woman whose father is influential. Something so vague that you could hardly attribute it to any particular show or movie.

I shouldn't say that they're examples of prototypical characters, but I did find the situation between the 3 to be very predictable.

rot wrote:I thought David made for a much better bad ass antagonist than the Colonel did in Avatar, simply because while David was clearly meant to be a bad ass military man, he didn't do or say anything over the top. And while this particular archetype is indeed used often, most of the other characters were not like this.

Yes, but that particular archetype is so damn obnoxious that it quite honestly has the potential to ruin an entire movie for me. Every single person on the planet has emotions. Everybody can be appealed to sympathetically. It frustrates me when movies try to convince me otherwise. Those characters are extremely fake, and I've grown very tired of them.

Rot wrote:Of course, let's ignore the fact that unlike every other mech battle in existence, this one is more of a mech running away from the military, and every once in a while shooting at them. Wikus barely understands how to use the thing, and it really shows. And what's wrong with mechs, anyway? Certainly, they have no place in IPs like Halo, but here it made perfect sense. It was essentially just a power suit, similar to Iron Man, except a bit bulkier.

Generally, I think mechs have become one of those elements of science fiction that are reserved for only the corniest of films. I tend to roll my eyes whenever I see one. Avatar was much worse. I mean... when the colonel pulled out that giant mech knife... I wanted to throw something at the screen. If a mech is going to have a knife... it would be attached to it's arm. It wouldn't be holstered in some giant mech sheath.

Rot wrote:The other prawn are just as violent and evil as the humans in the film, and while the corporation is most certainly the main antagonist, this is only because they are the main force working against Wikus, not because they are particularly more evil than any other organization or peoples in the film.

Except that MNU was already evil for the way it was treating the aliens. Remember wikus saying that the new camps were like concentration camps?

KrAzY wrote:the cat food thing was because when you are trying to catch prawn... you bait with cat food...


the cat food was just a nod to the ACTUAL animal they they named the aliens after... which for those of you who don't know... are shrimp.... if you have ever eaten shrimp cocktail or BBQ shrimp (the big ones) then you've probably eaten prawn

commercial shrimp boats don't use bait... just large nets... but if you want to catch them recreationally... you chum the water with cat food first

Very well then. It was a clever pun.


rasq wrote:It's not "White man is EVIL!" and neither was "Avatar". Instead, it fell squarely into the Humans Are Bastards trope, which is a HELL of a lot more true-to-life than "Humans are Special" or "Deep down, everyone is a really great guy."

Avatar was an allusion to the way the white man treated the American Indians. The military corporation in avatar was almost entirely American/European. I'd say it was very much about the evil white man.

Rasq wrote:What's weirder, this plot point, or the fact that people are still asking about it when the movie spent half of the time HAMMERING HOME the fact that the aliens' technology and biotechnology was so completely interrelated, MNU couldn't even get the weapons to work when they took them apart completely. While I doubt the liquid was so simple as gasoline, I'm pretty sure it's an energy source, or some sort of biological key needed to activate the ship.

I don't think I ever expressed any confusion about that Rasq. I know the alien technology can only be used by the aliens. However, that would suggest that there is either something built into the weapons which cause them to only work with aliens, or that the liquid has some sort of genetic key. What doesn't make sense is that the liquid would turn you into one of them...

Rasq wrote:Is there a crapload of other movies out there that I'm not aware of, which follow the same plot/premise?

No, the premise is original, but I think it played out very predictably.

Gauz wrote:Like everyone else pointed out, if you had paid attention you'd know that it was set 20 years after the first landing, and the prawns were everything the South Africans did NOT want.

What in my post suggested that I wasn't aware of that? I still think the human race would be more concerned about the aliens.

Gauz wrote:There you go thinking originallity is the only thing that makes movies good. What about... plot? If a movie is totally original but had a god awful plot, would it be an A+ for you?

Again, I'd replace the word "unoriginal" with "predictable." And when a movie is predictable, I don't have a very good time watching it. Plot is very important, but I honestly didn't think the plot of D9 was very... riveting. The main character was pretty unlikeable, and I didn't really feel like it amounted to anything.
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Post by RX on Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:20 pm

I just realised this was the Avatar thread...
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Post by Gauz on Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:33 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Well I would suggest talking about the impact that the aliens had on the human race from a psychological standpoint. I mean... if aliens just showed up one day, just about every religion on earth would fall apart, astronomers would flip out, we'd be backwards engineering the hell out of the space ship...
I suppose the world would be in "chaos" but I don't know if there would be huge masses of people flocking to Johannesburg just for that. In fact, I think some people would be afraid and try to shun their existence. Its in South Africa and they've lived with them for 20 years, so I think the guys around them are not so in shock anymore.


ReconToaster wrote:
Aren't those black people merely the result of 150 years of European imperialism? And the Aliens were only acting with such hostility because MNU WAS SHOVING THEM IN CAMPS!!!
Or becasue they weren't so intelligent.

ReconToaster wrote:
And no, the aliens probably wouldn't do the same to us, seeing as they don't even understand the concept of property rights.
You're right, some in a higher caste might even want to exterminate us for what we did to them. But I think they'd be resonable personally.


ReconToaster wrote:
Generally, I think mechs have become one of those elements of science fiction that are reserved for only the corniest of films. I tend to roll my eyes whenever I see one. Avatar was much worse. I mean... when the colonel pulled out that giant mech knife... I wanted to throw something at the screen. If a mech is going to have a knife... it would be attached to it's arm. It wouldn't be holstered in some giant mech sheath.
You think, but a lot of people don't think that. Mechs have just been over-used, they can still be done well likeindistrict9maybe...
And I suppose you're right about the knife thing... but then again I didn't design the thing nor did you. There's a reason why they did that, and i'm sure he considered your idea too.


ReconToaster wrote:
Avatar was an allusion to the way the white man treated the American Indians. The military corporation in avatar was almost entirely American/European. I'd say it was very much about the evil white man.
I'd say that anyone could fill the role of the greedy corporate guy. It just so happens to be a white guy.... opressing people who just so happen to be (in a way...) alien native americans.


ReconToaster wrote:
I don't think I ever expressed any confusion about that Rasq. I know the alien technology can only be used by the aliens. However, that would suggest that there is either something built into the weapons which cause them to only work with aliens, or that the liquid has some sort of genetic key. What doesn't make sense is that the liquid would turn you into one of them...
Well you're analyzing this too hard, why the liquid does that we don't know, because the movie didn't tell us. That doesn't mean its a dumb idea, that just means they have to explain how or why, like many series do with wacky ideas. Kind of how Bungie had to explain how Flood turned you into combat forms/carrier forms/pure forms.

ReconToaster wrote:

What in my post suggested that I wasn't aware of that? I still think the human race would be more concerned about the aliens.
and maybe you're right, but obviously, the people in Johannesburg don't.


ReconToaster wrote:
Again, I'd replace the word "unoriginal" with "predictable." And when a movie is predictable, I don't have a very good time watching it. Plot is very important, but I honestly didn't think the plot of D9 was very... riveting. The main character was pretty unlikeable, and I didn't really feel like it amounted to anything.
I agree with you that Avatar was predictable, but the way they presented it (for me) made it a very good movie. I forgot that, presentation, you need a good one for success. On another note, what did you think about D9 was "predictable"? I had no idea that fluid would turn him into a prawn, or that he'd actually cut off this thumb, or a number of other things.
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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:35 pm

So... I heard Avatar was racist or something like that

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Post by Cheese on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:25 pm

I cracked up at the dragon rape part.

But it's a metaphor for so many things (colonization or exploitation of resources in foreign soil mainly) that you can't really just call it about the native Americans.

\\i take it most people realise by now that the 'I see you' greeting was what they did/maybe do in some parts of Africa.

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:29 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Rot wrote:The documentary style did really add a different aspect to it, but it was used throughout the entire film. They just used cinametics more in the middle, since there were parts where they couldn't tell the story properly without it.

The film was advertised mainly with excerpts using that documentary style. I really enjoy that style of filming, and seeing is so sparsely deployed was disappointing.
TBH, I've never really been impressed with a movie in "Mockumentary" form. "The September Tapes" is the one that comes to mind first...

Really, the documentary parts did what they could do best: Catch the viewer up with a story and wrap that story up.

ReconToaster wrote:
Rot wrote:And what would you suggest? The alien technology won't work for us, the aliens themselves aren't here for diplomacy. They showed up in need of food and shelter. They have no means to leave the planet; their ship doesn't work. There's really nothing to handle other than housing them. A trans-national corporation being funded and watched by various governments makes perfect sense. It ensures that no one government can take advantage of the situation, which is the primary concern of other governments.

Well I would suggest talking about the impact that the aliens had on the human race from a psychological standpoint. I mean... if aliens just showed up one day, just about every religion on earth would fall apart, astronomers would flip out, we'd be backwards engineering the hell out of the space ship...
Ah. I see you're a Saganist.
"Aliens show up, we all unite."
Let's take the Native Americans as an example. White Men showing up didn't fracture their world. Politics and rivalries continued, which is more than enough of a reason why the ship wouldn't have been examined as closely.

As for "Earth Shattering Aliens"...
That's what they were twenty years ago. But after twenty years of living off UN help and building up slums, they're just animals. Very ugly animals

ReconToaster wrote:
Rot wrote:So you didn't notice that the black people were evil too? Or that the aliens were hardly saints themselves? The message had shit all to do with white people. It was about humans and our capacity for evil, but also that this wasn't really something that could be helped, because were the situation reverse, it is likely that the aliens would do the same to us.

Aren't those black people merely the result of 150 years of European imperialism? And the Aliens were only acting with such hostility because MNU WAS SHOVING THEM IN CAMPS!!!
Yes, because they definitely got voodoo from the white guys. /sarcasm
That's actually a reflection upon humanity. No matter how badly we're treated, we're always prepared to turn around and do worse. Ever read "Heart of Darkness"?

ReconToaster wrote:And no, the aliens probably wouldn't do the same to us, seeing as they don't even understand the concept of property rights.
Might even make it worse. Why bother buying land when the inhabitants don't own it, and you really want oil?

ReconToaster wrote:
rot wrote:I thought David made for a much better bad ass antagonist than the Colonel did in Avatar, simply because while David was clearly meant to be a bad ass military man, he didn't do or say anything over the top. And while this particular archetype is indeed used often, most of the other characters were not like this.

Yes, but that particular archetype is so damn obnoxious that it quite honestly has the potential to ruin an entire movie for me. Every single person on the planet has emotions.
He had emotions too.

Everybody can be appealed to sympathetically. It frustrates me when movies try to convince me otherwise. Those characters are extremely fake, and I've grown very tired of them. [/quote]
Careful... You're treading very closely into "Deep down, everyone is a nice guy" territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Forrest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Medina

The truth is, all those guys were probably "Pretty good guys" with deeper motivations than "I love killing Prawns/Niggers/Juden/Gooks. I can't believe they pay me for this!" but you wouldn't know it when you were on the other end of the gun.

ReconToaster wrote:
Rot wrote:Of course, let's ignore the fact that unlike every other mech battle in existence, this one is more of a mech running away from the military, and every once in a while shooting at them. Wikus barely understands how to use the thing, and it really shows. And what's wrong with mechs, anyway? Certainly, they have no place in IPs like Halo, but here it made perfect sense. It was essentially just a power suit, similar to Iron Man, except a bit bulkier.

Generally, I think mechs have become one of those elements of science fiction that are reserved for only the corniest of films. I tend to roll my eyes whenever I see one. Avatar was much worse. I mean... when the colonel pulled out that giant mech knife... I wanted to throw something at the screen. If a mech is going to have a knife... it would be attached to it's arm. It wouldn't be holstered in some giant mech sheath.
True. 99% of all mechs in sci-fi are bad. Even when you discount every single bit of Japanimation, it still holds true.

That being said (Plus I hate mechs in general) I STILL think that the mechs in Avatar and D-9 were done pretty well. We have no idea what the Prawn's home is like, so mecha could have been justified by the terrain they were living in (If, of course, they were living in open caves or places that would inhibit gunships).

Avatar, the extreme mobility and agility of the AMPs justified a more humanoid control and use of guns. I admit that there's no real justification for a separable knife, but I won't be harping on it.

ReconToaster wrote:
Rot wrote:The other prawn are just as violent and evil as the humans in the film, and while the corporation is most certainly the main antagonist, this is only because they are the main force working against Wikus, not because they are particularly more evil than any other organization or peoples in the film.

Except that MNU was already evil for the way it was treating the aliens. Remember wikus saying that the new camps were like concentration camps?
Which is worse than the slums that the South African government was running... how?
Which is worse than what the Nigerians were doing... how?

ReconToaster wrote:
rasq wrote:It's not "White man is EVIL!" and neither was "Avatar". Instead, it fell squarely into the Humans Are Bastards trope, which is a HELL of a lot more true-to-life than "Humans are Special" or "Deep down, everyone is a really great guy."

Avatar was an allusion to the way the white man treated the American Indians. The military corporation in avatar was almost entirely American/European. I'd say it was very much about the evil white man.
Go look up colonialism.
There's really no difference between what happened to Native Americans, what happened to Africans, and what happened to Aborigines.

Yeah, I'll admit that there could have been more ethnic leads in RDA, and I wish there were, but there were a total of, what, two main RDA employees who weren't part of the Avatar Program?

ReconToaster wrote:
Rasq wrote:Is there a crapload of other movies out there that I'm not aware of, which follow the same plot/premise?

No, the premise is original, but I think it played out very predictably.
I think this is rather funny. In theaters, I knew nothing about how the movie was going to turn out, because I'd only heard about it the week before (Best way to watch movies, by the way) I was immediately turned off by all the gore, and then when the aliens were doing their sneaky salvaging for "The Liquid", I thought "Oh, great, Aliens Release Bioweapon In Return For Human Mistreatment of Them". No idea if that's original, but it wasn't very exciting.

And then Wikkus gets sprayed, and starts getting sick, and I figured that I was right. Then he starts turning into a Prawn, and I think "Oh, great, "Aliens get back at us by turning us into them". How much lamer can you get?

Anyhow, there were a number of twists in there that surprised me (Wikkus actually turning around and saving Christopher, for one) and I left the theater rather satisfied overall.

So, here's my challenge to you. What was the last movie that kept you guessing?

Kasrkin Seath wrote:So... I heard Avatar was racist or something like that
You have to be racist to think of it as racist, IMO.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:27 am

ReconToaster wrote:The film was advertised mainly with excerpts using that documentary style. I really enjoy that style of filming, and seeing is so sparsely deployed was disappointing.

I enjoyed the style too, but a lot of the middle content simply couldn't be portrayed in that fashion.

ReconToaster wrote:Well I would suggest talking about the impact that the aliens had on the human race from a psychological standpoint. I mean... if aliens just showed up one day, just about every religion on earth would fall apart, astronomers would flip out, we'd be backwards engineering the hell out of the space ship...

But the film isn't about what happened when they first showed up. Its about twenty years later. I'd imagine within twenty years, religions have corrected their doctrines to allow for aliens, etc.

ReconToaster wrote:Aren't those black people merely the result of 150 years of European imperialism?

They seemed pretty damned independent to me. In fact, the hostility between blacks and whites was almost nonexistent in the movie.

ReconToaster wrote:And the Aliens were only acting with such hostility because MNU WAS SHOVING THEM IN CAMPS!!!

Rewatch the beginning. The main reason the aliens were being evicted from District 9 in the first place was because the human residents couldn't stand alien crime anymore. The beginning talks about aliens derailing trains and setting trucks on fire for recreation and entertainment. These things were not innocent.

ReconToaster wrote:And no, the aliens probably wouldn't do the same to us, seeing as they don't even understand the concept of property rights.

Were the aliens in charge of us, I'm sure things would be no better, is what I'm saying. It would just be anarchy and chaos rather than fascism and tyranny.

ReconToaster wrote:I shouldn't say that they're examples of prototypical characters, but I did find the situation between the 3 to be very predictable.

Some of it was, of course. Having Louis betray his own son-in-law helped establish just how desperate MNU was for the biological technology that would allow them to use alien weapons. Remember that prior to this, Louis promotes his son-in-law, obviously favoring him over others. Rough around the edges, perhaps, but it wasn't completely obvious that Louis would betray Wikus from the get go.

ReconToaster wrote:Yes, but that particular archetype is so damn obnoxious that it quite honestly has the potential to ruin an entire movie for me. Every single person on the planet has emotions. Everybody can be appealed to sympathetically. It frustrates me when movies try to convince me otherwise. Those characters are extremely fake, and I've grown very tired of them.

It's all about justification. Everyone has emotions, but some people are far better at justifying their actions than others. And the reason military men are used most often for the emotionless type is because career military men are probably the best at controlling their emotions and justifying their own actions. This can be a powerful asset, or a terrible curse, but it's generally the truth.

ReconToaster wrote:Generally, I think mechs have become one of those elements of science fiction that are reserved for only the corniest of films. I tend to roll my eyes whenever I see one. Avatar was much worse. I mean... when the colonel pulled out that giant mech knife... I wanted to throw something at the screen. If a mech is going to have a knife... it would be attached to it's arm. It wouldn't be holstered in some giant mech sheath.

The concept of using a powered suit that is larger than yourself isn't really that unfeasible. The mechs in Avatar and District 9 were both more to the scale of increasing the user's size and strength. Thus, it made sense for the mech to be built as similar to the user as possible, which means handling a knife with a hand, rather than having one arbitrarily attached to one's arm. Not to mention that a knife that is being handled in such a manner is far more versatile than one that is welded on.

ReconToaster wrote:Except that MNU was already evil for the way it was treating the aliens. Remember wikus saying that the new camps were like concentration camps?

I'd like to again stress that MNU had no part in the care of the aliens until the beginning of the film. I'd also note that, despite Wikus describing District 10 as a concentration camp, the alien population nearly doubled after being moved from District 9 to District 10.

ReconToaster wrote:Avatar was an allusion to the way the white man treated the American Indians. The military corporation in avatar was almost entirely American/European. I'd say it was very much about the evil white man.

And here I thought it was more an alagory for British imperialism in Africa...

ReconToaster wrote:I don't think I ever expressed any confusion about that Rasq. I know the alien technology can only be used by the aliens. However, that would suggest that there is either something built into the weapons which cause them to only work with aliens, or that the liquid has some sort of genetic key. What doesn't make sense is that the liquid would turn you into one of them...

And we used to think it didn't make sense that radiation made you glow and eventually die. When strange foreign chemicals meet with humans for the first time, the results are rarely what we'd expect.

ReconToaster wrote:What in my post suggested that I wasn't aware of that? I still think the human race would be more concerned about the aliens.

And they were. And for maybe 15 years, they tried to figure it out. And then, after 15 years of getting absolutely nowhere with alien technology, diplomacy, etc, people just stopped caring.

ReconToaster wrote:Again, I'd replace the word "unoriginal" with "predictable." And when a movie is predictable, I don't have a very good time watching it. Plot is very important, but I honestly didn't think the plot of D9 was very... riveting. The main character was pretty unlikeable, and I didn't really feel like it amounted to anything.

Considering that most movies purposely shoot for a likeable main character, Wikus's acts of cowardice and betrayal should have been harder to predict, at least at first. If you found the movie too predictable, I doubt there's much out there you like. I mean, the movie wasn't eight steps ahead of you the whole time, but then, what's the fun in that? It's easy to make a movie that is confusing and hard to predict. It is difficult to make a movie like that that is actually worth watching.

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Post by Divine Virus on Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:34 am

Oh so happy to see all that time typing my responces was a waste of time.

Although Rot. You are using a lot of the points that stated too. Not saying you stole them, just saying it seems we think a like when it comes to the debate of this amazing movie. Smile
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:41 am

Due to laziness, I generally don't read the posts of people that are on my side (I'll read the first paragraph or so). Otherwise, I'd probably avoid restating points that have already been raised. Apologies.

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Post by Divine Virus on Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:44 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:Due to laziness, I generally don't read the posts of people that are on my side (I'll read the first paragraph or so). Otherwise, I'd probably avoid restating points that have already been raised. Apologies.

Oh, no apologie is needed. As I said I was merely pointing out that some/most of the points your bringing up are ones that I too also stated in some of my respnces.

That's all. Razz
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Post by Ringleader on Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:12 pm

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:00 pm

From what I hear, playable, one of the better tie-in games around, but the graphics are lackluster. Really lackluster.
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Post by Felix on Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:03 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:From what I hear, playable, one of the better tie-in games around, but the graphics are lackluster. Really lackluster.

Compared to the film, or just in general?
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Post by KrAzY on Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:05 pm

in general.... they used all the good artists on the movie
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Post by Felix on Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:07 pm

KrAzY wrote:in general.... they used all the good artists on the movie

Makes sense. I still find it out they would make a game so soon after release though. Why not wait a few months or so?
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