Homosexuality in Religion

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:51 pm

Felix wrote:Me, personally, I can't figure out well God would hate gays(to clarify, I'm not sure if it's written in text, but it's been said).

It's also been said that pigs can fly. What counts is what is written, not what people make up to try and support their personal cause. God does not hate gays, or anyone else. He hates the sin, not the sinner.

Felix wrote:If they don't hurt me, or the people around me, I don't see why they shouldn't go to Heaven if they do all "right" choices in life.

What about sexual immorality aside from homosexuality. Masturbation, lust, and all that whatnot. Are those sins?

Felix wrote:Also, the purgatory thing. In Catholic school, I was told that no one gets in to Heaven straight away unless you were a saint. You go to Purgatory(basically the middle area) where you wait for a certain number of prayers to get into Heaven. This concept always came up odd to me, but it's what I was told.

The Bible teaches that we will be cleansed by fire upon entering Heaven. It doesn't actually give any specifics beyond that.

kslidz wrote:oh sorry i meant 8 and 9 sorry and you dont have to dissect everythig just the obvious parts

Romans 8:8 doesn't add much. My previous explanation still stands. This scripture has nothing to do with predestination or free will.

Gauz wrote:Should it be considered a sin? Well to me, it shouldn't, and you described why. To others, it should, why? Well they have their own (absurd) reasoning, and they are entitled to their own (absurd) opinoins.

Moreover, what is the proximate cause to this argument? Or... what are we debating? Are we debating the ethics of homosexuality? If we are trying to find out if God accepts Homosexuals definately, you wont really get anywhere.

My opinion is that God loves everyone, why? He says it (or people say he says it) over and over in the book (bible).

Homosexuality is a type of sexual immorality. Like most sexual immoral sins, it doesn't directly harm anyone other than the sinner themselves. It is a type of defiling one's own body.

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Post by Nocbl2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:57 pm

"God" is an entity invented by people. Really, Jesus never said anything about people being gay. "God" is not really a person. It is a spiritual entity that can assist people's minds along after they've left the "physical" world. I think there is something like an afterlife. I believe in God, but am still slightly agnostic. Indifferent, I guess, is God(as well as I).

People believe what they want, if they're homosexual and believe in God, I don't really care. BLEEP BLOOP
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Post by Gauz on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:58 pm

Question: Is post-martial sex considered a sexual immorality?
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Post by Nocbl2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:59 pm

idk.
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Post by Felix on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:59 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
My take on the subject, aside from the historical accuracy of the bible:
If an all-powerful God was to go to the trouble of giving us his word and telling us what to do, he'd probably go to the trouble of making sure that his Word remains uncorrupted.

Well, his Word has been corrupted before. They fall away from "His" way, and look to wordly possesions. To be fair though, they get fixed later, so it's possible God intervined, or maybe a slight glimer of hope for humanity for when they see the "right" choice.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Is this what you've been taught, or what you've decided from the sidelines?
(Note that I'm not asking "Do you just believe that because your parents believe it?" I'm asking something entirely different)

It was what I was directly taught. I even asked my teacher what she meant. She said(from what I remember anyway) that only saints get a direct path into heaven, and everyone else waits in purgatory for a certain amount of prayers to get in.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Anyhow, when I was young... I kept getting Purgatory and Constipation mixed up. It was embarrassing.

Well... that's a story you can get a laugh out of Razz

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Well, here's a microcosm: In Spore, it's great when the little creatures do what you want them to do without a lot of prodding.
If they were programmed to do EXACTLY what you want them to, down to the letter, then it would not only dissatisfying to you, but unfair to them. They'd be little more than calculators.

I think you miss understood me. What I meant was, God gave us free will did He not? If so, why can't we use this free will without worry of slightly going off the path to "righteousness"? I mean, there are certain amount of things that we as humans shouldn't do (such as taking others' lives) but if one loves another, what says we have a right to say they can't love? I really want to explain it better, but man I am tired...

EDIT: And my word, I can not quote...

EDIT: I just fucking fixed it, and you broke it again!
-Rot
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Post by kslidz on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:05 pm

augh im not being very clear

i was talking about the chapters but whatever im not that interested in debating just
be aware that predestination is not discounted

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:06 pm

If God loves everyone why would he allow the ones who do not believe in him to suffer in hell? He has the power to change that, why doesn't he?

People who don't believe in him could just die without an afterlife, why make them suffer in hell? So either God is not omnipotent or he doesn't really love us. Which one do you prefer?
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Post by Felix on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:10 pm

kslidz wrote:augh im not being very clear

i was talking about the chapters but whatever im not that interested in debating just
be aware that predestination is not discounted

I was always confused by predestination. It somehow doesn't seem to fit with the rest of God's teachings to me. What it seems like is, no matter what you do, every thing is planned out for you. You will sin because God said so, you will fail because God said so, you achieve because God says so etc. It seems like free will wouldn't exist as no matter what you do, you'll go to Heaven or Hell not base on what you'll do, but what God says so before hand.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:11 pm

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:If God loves everyone why would he allow the ones who do not believe in him to suffer in hell? He has the power to change that, why doesn't he?

God is absolutely just. He cannot abide sin. He cannot just say "well, I like you, so you get in for free." It doesn't work that way. God is lawful, and abides by very specific rules.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:People who don't believe in him could just die without an afterlife, why make them suffer in hell? So either God is not omnipotent or he doesn't really love us. Which one do you prefer?

I'm not sure which I would fear more: Hell, or oblivion. To the point, neither is exactly fun, and I wouldn't call either a worse fate than the other.

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:14 pm

I would rather not exist at all than to exist in pain for the rest of eternity. God doesn't like his children going to hell, and they cant go to heaven. So why not spare them?
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Post by Felix on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:20 pm

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:I would rather not exist at all than to exist in pain for the rest of eternity. God doesn't like his children going to hell, and they cant go to heaven. So why not spare them?

Well I think existance is better than non-existance(only because I like existing) and my thoughts are, if you're there for eternity, might as well enjoy it. I mean, hell is bad and all, but it is enternity. So I'm guessing you would get used to it, as they would run of things to torture you with eventually. I mean it's not like they can kill you again.

Do I think Hell is a bad place? Yes. Is it worse than non-existance? Not to me, no.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:26 pm

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:I would rather not exist at all than to exist in pain for the rest of eternity. God doesn't like his children going to hell, and they cant go to heaven. So why not spare them?

Did you miss the first part of my post?

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:44 pm

So God says if you don't believe in me I will make sure you burn in Hell for eternity. I love you, but you will still burn. In Hell. ForEVER!!! HAH AH AH AHAH AHHAHAH

A little exaggerated but the point is the same. If God loves us why would he let us suffer?
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:48 pm

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:So God says if you don't believe in me I will make sure you burn in Hell for eternity. I love you, but you will still burn. In Hell. ForEVER!!! HAH AH AH AHAH AHHAHAH

A little exaggerated but the point is the same. If God loves us why would he let us suffer?

You commit a crime and find yourself in court. If the judge is a good judge, will he let you off just because he likes you?

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:00 pm

Our legal system is flawed and not a good example. Gods punishment is eternity in Hell where you burn and are tortured forever. Jail and Prison is just a place to wait until you get out, or wait until they humanly kill you (which is said to be painless).

Why does there have to be punishment. You either get rewarded with Heaven or you don't and just die.

If God cant be around sin, why did he create it?
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:30 pm

God did not create sin. To help you understand this, let's have some examples.

What is darkness? The opposite of light, yes? Wrong. Darkness is the absence of light.

And what is cold? The opposite of heat, yes? Wrong. Cold is the absence of heat.

Likewise, evil is not the opposite of good, but the absence of it. In the Bible, Jesus says that God is the only one who is "good," so by that reasoning, evil is the absence of God.

But if God is omnipresent, how can he be absent from anywhere? Quite simply, God has given us the ability to deny him access to our hearts, and in doing so, evil is created.

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Post by KrAzY on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:42 pm

so by not accepting God... I am evil.... despite being just as kind and self sacrificing as any christian I know?


also... someone who is denied access to any place in exsistance is not Omnipresent.... even if they themselves are the ones who denied access



BTW

cold is not the absence of heat... Cold is the absence of energy... heat is the release of energy... there is no force of Hot... Light is different as it is a particle... "darkness" literally is the absence of emissive photons... so your metaphor still works there... unless you are talking about all matter... where darkness is the abundance of non-emissive photons
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:12 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:I'm not sure which I would fear more: Hell, or oblivion. To the point, neither is exactly fun, and I wouldn't call either a worse fate than the other.
Would definitely prefer oblivion over Hell.

KrAzY wrote:so by not accepting God... I am evil.... despite being just as kind and self sacrificing as any christian I know?
Two of your neighbors sneak up in the night, and steal two of your expensive lawn decorations.
One comes back the next day, admits he did it, and asks you to forgive him.

KrAzY wrote:also... someone who is denied access to any place in exsistance is not Omnipresent.... even if they themselves are the ones who denied access

BTW

cold is not the absence of heat... Cold is the absence of energy... heat is the release of energy... there is no force of Hot... Light is different as it is a particle... "darkness" literally is the absence of emissive photons... so your metaphor still works there... unless you are talking about all matter... where darkness is the abundance of non-emissive photons
KrAzY... you're REALLY splitting hairs here.
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Post by KrAzY on Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:20 pm

splitting hairs?


I can tell you the equation for any one of those... entropy is a pretty easy formula actually.... can calculate the speed of light through an object....

can't do anything with dark matter tho... as my knowledge of DM only goes as far as the discovery channel




for one... I wouldn't leave anything I cared about sitting in my lawn.... and I would blame myself for not having installed a security camera


and the difference is.. I know I sin... as everybody does... but i'm not going to lie and say that someone is my savior just to avoid hell... as lieing to myself is worse than lieing to god IMO...
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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:43 am

If God was truly omniscient he would be able to remove sin. If he can't be around it why create it in the first place? Yes God created sin, by giving Adam and Eve free will he paved the way for them to sin. The fact that their sins carried on into everyone else is bullshit, but it happened.

Here is a little commercial idea:


Do you sin? Of course you do, you were born into sin! There is no way to avoid it. You will always sin and nothing you do will ever make you a sin free person.

However, if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior this will give you the ability to wash away your sins at will! Just slept with your secretary? Ask forgiveness and start with a blank slate!

Have doubts it will work? No problems! There will always be doubt! As long as you believe that you can wash away your sins you can! Just accept Jesus Christ.

If you don't then you are not worthy to be with God and you will burn and be tortured for eternity in Hell. Join Christianity and be SAVED TODAY!


Do you see how the religion is made to try and scare people into believing? I mean come on, if you don't believe in God then you are not worthy of his presence. That does not sound like a reasonable and loving God to me.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:51 am

KrAzY wrote:so by not accepting God... I am evil.... despite being just as kind and self sacrificing as any christian I know?

I'm trying to figure out where I implied that you have to be a Christian to do good...and I'd like to also point out that even Christians can commit evil.

KrAzY wrote:also... someone who is denied access to any place in exsistance is not Omnipresent.... even if they themselves are the ones who denied access

Personally, I'd consider someone who exists almost everywhere, and is capable to exist anywhere, to be omnipresent, but if it makes you feel better, God is almost omnipresent, but respects free will.

KrAzY wrote:BTW

cold is not the absence of heat... Cold is the absence of energy... heat is the release of energy... there is no force of Hot... Light is different as it is a particle... "darkness" literally is the absence of emissive photons... so your metaphor still works there... unless you are talking about all matter... where darkness is the abundance of non-emissive photons

Of come on, KrAzY. Examples are supposed to make concepts easier to understand, so you shouldn't need a degree in quantum physics to understand them. If it makes you feel better, the point is the same. Cold is not the opposite of energy, but the absence of it. Jeez.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Would definitely prefer oblivion over Hell.

You think that now, but just imagine not existing. It's an experience that I simply can't wrap my mind around.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Two of your neighbors sneak up in the night, and steal two of your expensive lawn decorations.
One comes back the next day, admits he did it, and asks you to forgive him.

Exactly.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:KrAzY... you're REALLY splitting hairs here.

And more importantly, missing the point.

KrAzY wrote:splitting hairs?

I can tell you the equation for any one of those... entropy is a pretty easy formula actually.... can calculate the speed of light through an object....

can't do anything with dark matter tho... as my knowledge of DM only goes as far as the discovery channel




for one... I wouldn't leave anything I cared about sitting in my lawn.... and I would blame myself for not having installed a security camera

Yes, splitting hairs. As in you are using your keen attention of detail to avoid the actual point I'm making. You are dancing around the points by debating semantics. I've never seen you use such blatant or overused logic fallacies before.

KrAzY wrote:and the difference is.. I know I sin... as everybody does... but i'm not going to lie and say that someone is my savior just to avoid hell... as lieing to myself is worse than lieing to god IMO...

You still going on about how you know every single aspect of yourself, and thus know that you could never possibly believe in God? Honestly, KrAzY, to claim that you know everything about anything, including yourself, is a level of arrogance that I'd never expect from someone like you. You should know as well as anyone that we can never know everything about anything, and that we should thusly never claim to know everything about anything. By claiming that you could never possibly believe in God, you've just made yourself look dumb. Right now, I currently don't think I could ever believe in evolution, but I'm not going to sit here and say that I know that I could never possibly ever under any circumstances believe in evolution, or that if I were to ever believe in evolution, I'd be lying to myself, because that would be the real lie. What's really going on is you've convinced yourself that you can't believe in God as a shield so you don't have to think about such things. And when you come before God and try to claim that you were physically incapable of believing in God because of your personality, don't think it will get you very far. It's just a philosophical cop out, and we both know it.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:If God was truly omniscient he would be able to remove sin.

He's going to. However, he's going to give humans a nice long time to shape up, and when humanity has finally broken down beyond hope, he'll do away with sin.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:If he can't be around it why create it in the first place? Yes God created sin, by giving Adam and Eve free will he paved the way for them to sin.

Quite the opposite. Sin existed before Adam and Eve. As I've already explained, sin/evil is the absence of good. Thus, because sin is not an object so much as a but a lack of an object, it cannot have been created. You cannot "create" cold or darkness, you simply remove heat energy or light (respectively). That's why we can never reach absolute zero or absolute black, also.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:The fact that their sins carried on into everyone else is bullshit, but it happened.

The real bullshit is how you try and blame Adam and Eve for decisions you make, like their responsible for your sins. They may have been the first humans to sin, but no human is ever presented with a situation where he physically cannot make the right choice. You're just as capable of not sinning as Jesus was when he came to Earth, so don't try and blame others for your downfalls.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Here is a little commercial idea:

Do you sin? Of course you do, you were born into sin! There is no way to avoid it. You will always sin and nothing you do will ever make you a sin free person.

However, if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior this will give you the ability to wash away your sins at will! Just slept with your secretary? Ask forgiveness and start with a blank slate!

Have doubts it will work? No problems! There will always be doubt! As long as you believe that you can wash away your sins you can! Just accept Jesus Christ.

If you don't then you are not worthy to be with God and you will burn and be tortured for eternity in Hell. Join Christianity and be SAVED TODAY!


Do you see how the religion is made to try and scare people into believing? I mean come on, if you don't believe in God then you are not worthy of his presence. That does not sound like a reasonable and loving God to me.

Forgive us if we utilize powerful motivators out of concern for your eternal soul. Fear of consequence is one of the main reasons people don't break the law, after all. But oh, the government is bad because they use fear to keep us in line. We should get rid of the law, because it uses fear.[/sarcasm]

What really gets me is the sarcasm attached to how non Christians are unworthy to be in the presence of God, like we Christians are somehow worthy. None of us are worthy to be in the presence of God, and frankly, I don't see why he even puts up with us. But he does, and for that, I'm thankful.

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:30 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:
LeafyOwNu2 wrote:If he can't be around it why create it in the first place? Yes God created sin, by giving Adam and Eve free will he paved the way for them to sin.

Quite the opposite. Sin existed before Adam and Eve. As I've already explained, sin/evil is the absence of good. Thus, because sin is not an object so much as a but a lack of an object, it cannot have been created. You cannot "create" cold or darkness, you simply remove heat energy or light (respectively). That's why we can never reach absolute zero or absolute black, also.

Why doesn't God just put good everywhere? Then there would be no evil and the world would be a better place. Sound good to me.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
LeafyOwNu2 wrote:The fact that their sins carried on into everyone else is bullshit, but it happened.

The real bullshit is how you try and blame Adam and Eve for decisions you make, like their responsible for your sins. They may have been the first humans to sin, but no human is ever presented with a situation where he physically cannot make the right choice. You're just as capable of not sinning as Jesus was when he came to Earth, so don't try and blame others for your downfalls.

I never blamed Adam and Eve. I am simply saying is unfair that we are born into sin. Why are the mistakes of the past brought down on the present? I never blamed others for my downfalls. I honestly don't know of any downfalls in my life. I am quite content with where I am now. Try reading the sentence again before you make wild assumptions like that.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Here is a little commercial idea:

Do you sin? Of course you do, you were born into sin! There is no way to avoid it. You will always sin and nothing you do will ever make you a sin free person.

However, if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior this will give you the ability to wash away your sins at will! Just slept with your secretary? Ask forgiveness and start with a blank slate!

Have doubts it will work? No problems! There will always be doubt! As long as you believe that you can wash away your sins you can! Just accept Jesus Christ.

If you don't then you are not worthy to be with God and you will burn and be tortured for eternity in Hell. Join Christianity and be SAVED TODAY!


Do you see how the religion is made to try and scare people into believing? I mean come on, if you don't believe in God then you are not worthy of his presence. That does not sound like a reasonable and loving God to me.

Forgive us if we utilize powerful motivators out of concern for your eternal soul. Fear of consequence is one of the main reasons people don't break the law, after all. But oh, the government is bad because they use fear to keep us in line. We should get rid of the law, because it uses fear.[/sarcasm]

What really gets me is the sarcasm attached to how non Christians are unworthy to be in the presence of God, like we Christians are somehow worthy. None of us are worthy to be in the presence of God, and frankly, I don't see why he even puts up with us. But he does, and for that, I'm thankful.

Well the legal system in the United States is actually a joke. They just sit around in a cell all day and play basketball. If they did a really really bad thing they get put on death row, where they wait in a cell all day until they are painlessly killed. That sounds a lot more different than being burned and tortured in Hell for all eternity.

I am simply saying that if God hates seeing his creation go to Hell then he should either A) Place good everywhere to remove sin and evil. B) Spare his creations the burning and torture of Hell and just let them go. He can't save them when they are in Hell.

Doctors do it in real life. If someone is suffering from a terminal and painful condition they give them an overdose of Morphine to spare them. God should spare us instead of watching his so called "loved ones" be tortured for all time.
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Post by KrAzY on Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:26 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:

You still going on about how you know every single aspect of yourself, and thus know that you could never possibly believe in God? Honestly, KrAzY, to claim that you know everything about anything, including yourself, is a level of arrogance that I'd never expect from someone like you. You should know as well as anyone that we can never know everything about anything, and that we should thusly never claim to know everything about anything. By claiming that you could never possibly believe in God, you've just made yourself look dumb. Right now, I currently don't think I could ever believe in evolution, but I'm not going to sit here and say that I know that I could never possibly ever under any circumstances believe in evolution, or that if I were to ever believe in evolution, I'd be lying to myself, because that would be the real lie. What's really going on is you've convinced yourself that you can't believe in God as a shield so you don't have to think about such things. And when you come before God and try to claim that you were physically incapable of believing in God because of your personality, don't think it will get you very far. It's just a philosophical cop out, and we both know it.


of my own mind, I am omnipotent

I could believe in god... I could absolutely believe in him if he gave ME any evidance


however... short of something happening to TRUELY change my mind... then no... it is impossible with my current way of thinking... maybe if I had been raised differently, or if something saves me from certain doom one day.... but otherwise any belief would be a lie, and you are very fucking arrogant to claim to know me better than I know myself.
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Post by Gauz on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:52 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:

He's going to. However, he's going to give humans a nice long time to shape up, and when humanity has finally broken down beyond hope, he'll do away with sin.
Its darkest before dawn, sorry, had to say that, because that's how it sounds. I really don't understand why he would make people he "loves" suffer that much for him.

rot wrote:
Quite the opposite. Sin existed before Adam and Eve. As I've already explained, sin/evil is the absence of good. Thus, because sin is not an object so much as a but a lack of an object, it cannot have been created. You cannot "create" cold or darkness, you simply remove heat energy or light (respectively). That's why we can never reach absolute zero or absolute black, also.
I could understand sin is the absence of god, however, if god is omnipotent he could overflow the universe with good.

rot wrote:
The real bullshit is how you try and blame Adam and Eve for decisions you make, like their responsible for your sins. They may have been the first humans to sin, but no human is ever presented with a situation where he physically cannot make the right choice. You're just as capable of not sinning as Jesus was when he came to Earth, so don't try and blame others for your downfalls.
They are responsible for sin...
In the story of Adam and Eve, Eve was tempted by the snake to eat the apple. She did, and then she also fed the apple to Adam. Then they realized, they were naked, and thusly covered themselves up from each other, and god. God asked what had they done, and Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the snake. God then punishes them with hard labor and the pain of child birth. It was then, sin has been interpeted as hereditary, passed on to men and women by Adam and Eve. This is why you must be baptised, they are the reason for original sin.

rot wrote:

What really gets me is the sarcasm attached to how non Christians are unworthy to be in the presence of God, like we Christians are somehow worthy. None of us are worthy to be in the presence of God, and frankly, I don't see why he even puts up with us. But he does, and for that, I'm thankful.
I think it should be the opposite, why do we put up with his shit? God could possibly be the most evil, hateful, murderous being ever concieved! Why? Well if you've ever heard about "God's Plan" you'd understand why. "God's Plan" is the idea that God mapped out your life entirely, the day you were born to the day you've died. Well... i'm sure you're thinking about situations in time when massive amounts of life ended unnecessarily. Perhaps, the Holocaust? Stalin's rule? 9/11? War?! According to "God's Plan", all of that was pre-determined, by God.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:28 pm

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Why doesn't God just put good everywhere? Then there would be no evil and the world would be a better place. Sound good to me.

That would defeat the purpose of free will.

Rotaretilbo wrote:I never blamed Adam and Eve. I am simply saying is unfair that we are born into sin. Why are the mistakes of the past brought down on the present? I never blamed others for my downfalls. I honestly don't know of any downfalls in my life. I am quite content with where I am now. Try reading the sentence again before you make wild assumptions like that.

You say it is bullshit that you are born into sin, but you aren't held accountable for Adam and Eve's actions. You fuck up plenty all on your own. Or do you contend that you've never lied, and you've never taken anything without asking, and you've never lusted after someone, and you've never hated someone?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Well the legal system in the United States is actually a joke. They just sit around in a cell all day and play basketball. If they did a really really bad thing they get put on death row, where they wait in a cell all day until they are painlessly killed. That sounds a lot more different than being burned and tortured in Hell for all eternity.

So you agree that the legal system is ineffective?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:I am simply saying that if God hates seeing his creation go to Hell then he should either A) Place good everywhere to remove sin and evil. B) Spare his creations the burning and torture of Hell and just let them go. He can't save them when they are in Hell.

God is not going to remove free will, and God cannot just let people off just cuz he likes them. It doesn't work that way. God suffered an extremely painful death so that you could get off free, but that isn't enough for you? You want him to let you off without you having to even respect him at all?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Doctors do it in real life. If someone is suffering from a terminal and painful condition they give them an overdose of Morphine to spare them. God should spare us instead of watching his so called "loved ones" be tortured for all time.

Ya, because assissted suicide is a wonderful example of doing something good...

KrAzY wrote:of my own mind, I am omnipotent

Bull. Shit.

KrAzY wrote:I could believe in god... I could absolutely believe in him if he gave ME any evidance

I suppose the historical accuracy of the Bible and all of those various prophecies that have come true thus far don't count as evidence?

KrAzY wrote:however... short of something happening to TRUELY change my mind... then no... it is impossible with my current way of thinking... maybe if I had been raised differently, or if something saves me from certain doom one day.... but otherwise any belief would be a lie, and you are very fucking arrogant to claim to know me better than I know myself.

To claim that you know are omnipotent of your own mind, you must know everything about yourself. For me to counter that, I must simply point out one thing that you do not know about yourself. I'm not claiming to know more about you than you do, KrAzY. I'm just claiming that no person knows everything about anything, and you aren't an exception.

Gauz wrote:Its darkest before dawn, sorry, had to say that, because that's how it sounds. I really don't understand why he would make people he "loves" suffer that much for him.

God isn't the source of suffering. We are.

Gauz wrote:I could understand sin is the absence of god, however, if god is omnipotent he could overflow the universe with good.

And, in the process, eliminate free will.

Gauz wrote:They are responsible for sin...
In the story of Adam and Eve, Eve was tempted by the snake to eat the apple. She did, and then she also fed the apple to Adam. Then they realized, they were naked, and thusly covered themselves up from each other, and god. God asked what had they done, and Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the snake. God then punishes them with hard labor and the pain of child birth. It was then, sin has been interpeted as hereditary, passed on to men and women by Adam and Eve. This is why you must be baptised, they are the reason for original sin.

They caused us to gain knowledge of sin, but we choose to sin on our own. We don't need any help sinning. And you don't get baptized because of sin. You get baptized as a public announcement that you've been saved.

Gauz wrote:I think it should be the opposite, why do we put up with his shit? God could possibly be the most evil, hateful, murderous being ever concieved! Why? Well if you've ever heard about "God's Plan" you'd understand why. "God's Plan" is the idea that God mapped out your life entirely, the day you were born to the day you've died. Well... i'm sure you're thinking about situations in time when massive amounts of life ended unnecessarily. Perhaps, the Holocaust? Stalin's rule? 9/11? War?! According to "God's Plan", all of that was pre-determined, by God.

Because, again, God maps out our lives, but gives us the right to choose our own path. It's called free will. If you want to argue predestination, go bug kslidz about it.

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