American Revolution

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Who do you think should have won?

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American Revolution - Page 2 Empty Re: American Revolution

Post by Rotaretilbo on Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:57 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Whereas the guns back then were truly inaccurate, the colonial guns were more accurate because they were intended for hunting.

Actually not true. The Colonists didn't have the resources to manufacture rifled guns, so they were using smooth bore muskets. The British, on the other hand, had rifles. The difference in accuracy was quite drastic.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:And yeah, I know that the red uniforms made sense for European style battles, but in forests and swamps (where we were fighting) they were more of a liability.

Even in forests and swamps, the red shirts prevented friendly fire. They just marked targets as well. And the war wasn't all fought in forests and swamps. It was fought on open ground quite a bit, too.

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Post by KrAzY on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:02 pm

actually Rot... you are incorrect...


the smooth bore musket was the primary weapon of the british army... hunting rifles were what the colonists were using


the caliber was smaller... but they had greater range and accuracy... which worked for their run and gun tactics
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Post by A_Bearded_Swede on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:07 pm

KrAzY wrote:

the caliber was smaller... but they had greater range and accuracy... which worked for their run and gun tactics
Like the movie The Patriot.
=D

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Post by Felix on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:22 pm

AMERICA! FUCK YA!
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:39 pm

KrAzY wrote:actually Rot... you are incorrect...


the smooth bore musket was the primary weapon of the british army... hunting rifles were what the colonists were using


the caliber was smaller... but they had greater range and accuracy... which worked for their run and gun tactics

Both sides used muskets, yes, but the Americans didn't have access to rifles, while the British did. I'd also point out that one of the most important aspects of the musket, the bayonet, was hard to come by in for the Americans until the French stepped in. Further, while the Americans did employ a rifle of a lower caliber with a longer barrel, that hardly made it more accurate. Because of the design of smoothbore muskets, length of barrel effected accuracy so little that one could hardly call the American's weapons more accurate.

I'd further point out that the run and gun style was largely ineffective during the Revolution, and was part of the reason we were getting our asses handed to us up until Valley Forge. When von Steuben took over and started training the American soldiers, he taught them how to be more effective in open combat. During the first part of the war, it was more run than gun, and after that, we did much less run and much more gun.

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Post by Toaster on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:10 pm

Rot wrote:I'd further point out that the run and gun style was largely ineffective during the Revolution, and was part of the reason we were getting our asses handed to us up until Valley Forge. When von Steuben took over and started training the American soldiers, he taught them how to be more effective in open combat. During the first part of the war, it was more run than gun, and after that, we did much less run and much more gun.

Von Stueben's training did improve the Continental Army's performance in open, European style battles, but tactics used by local militias continued to be run & gun, guerrilla style tactics, and they worked. It didn't win us any battles, but that's not the point.

It wounded British troop strength, and severely wounded British morale.

Anyway, we were never really "getting our asses handed to us." For example, we may have lost the battle at Bunker Hill, but the British suffered over 2 casualties for every one casualty that we received.

Local militias also sustained much less casualties at Lexington and Concord, and hell, they took Fort Ticonderoga without firing a shot.

We were not getting out asses kicked.
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Post by Nocbl2 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:29 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Rot wrote:I'd further point out that the run and gun style was largely ineffective during the Revolution, and was part of the reason we were getting our asses handed to us up until Valley Forge. When von Steuben took over and started training the American soldiers, he taught them how to be more effective in open combat. During the first part of the war, it was more run than gun, and after that, we did much less run and much more gun.

Von Stueben's training did improve the Continental Army's performance in open, European style battles, but tactics used by local militias continued to be run & gun, guerrilla style tactics, and they worked. It didn't win us any battles, but that's not the point.

It wounded British troop strength, and severely wounded British morale.

Anyway, we were never really "getting our asses handed to us." For example, we may have lost the battle at Bunker Hill, but the British suffered over 2 casualties for every one casualty that we received.

Local militias also sustained much less casualties at Lexington and Concord, and hell, they took Fort Ticonderoga without firing a shot.

We were not getting out asses kicked.
Definitely not. We were just beginning the guerilla warfare tactics; but we still won more than half the battles, no matter what we did. We simply had guts to do what no European soldier ever thought of.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:11 am

ReconToaster wrote: Von Stueben's training did improve the Continental Army's performance in open, European style battles, but tactics used by local militias continued to be run & gun, guerrilla style tactics, and they worked. It didn't win us any battles, but that's not the point.

The hit and run tactics were largely ineffective. The concept is to attack by surprise and get the hell out as quickly as possible, but with guns as inaccurate and slow loading as muskets this was largely impossible. If we truly used guerrilla warfare, we would pop up, fire, causing a bit of confusion but almost no casualties, and then run. The only thing effective about guerrilla warfare at the time was that it meant that the British never got the chance to rape us because we were simply always on the run.

ReconToaster wrote: It wounded British troop strength, and severely wounded British morale.

It hardly touched British troop strength, and before Valley Forge, the British considered us so little a threat that the idea of us winning was laughable. Further, prior to Valley Forge, our morale was as low as it could get. The fact that we made it through the winter is frankly quite amazing.

ReconToaster wrote: Anyway, we were never really "getting our asses handed to us." For example, we may have lost the battle at Bunker Hill, but the British suffered over 2 casualties for every one casualty that we received.

Bunker Hill was just one example and, oh, what do you know, it wasn't a battle using guerrilla warfare! Bunker Hill was British arrogance, not American strategy, at work. And, frankly, we had the advantage at Bunker Hill anyway. We outnumbered the British garrison three to two, and even then, our casualties weren't that far off. The British took over 1100 casualties, and we took over 1000 casualties. Hardly the 2:1 you projected.

ReconToaster wrote: Local militias also sustained much less casualties at Lexington and Concord

While it is true that the British took three times as many casualties at Lexington/Concord as the local militia, I'd first point out that we outnumbered the British four to one at Concord and by the end of the day, we outnumbered overall British forces over two to one. And further, these casualties were so low that they are laughable. The British suffered 300 casualties and we suffered just under 100. Of those casualties, the British suffered just over 70 deaths and we suffered just under 50.

ReconToaster wrote:and hell, they took Fort Ticonderoga without firing a shot.

It isn't hard to surprise and capture 50 men in the dead of night when you outnumber them two to one. Not to mention that Benedict Arnold was a tactical genius who saved us in several battles, was injured while saving our asses/disobeying his general's completely stupid orders, and then his general took credit for the whole thing. No wonder the poor bugger turned coat.

ReconToaster wrote: We were not getting out asses kicked.

We managed a few minor victories at the very beginning, but during 1776, things starting going downhill. During the Battles of Quebec, Cedars, Long Island, Kip's Bay, and Valcour Island, our casualties were oft twice, thrice, even four times as many as the British, and at the Battles of Fort Washington and Fort Lee, while we doled out marginally higher casualties, we suffered massive captures (over a thousand, compared to casualties around a hundred). And even after an astonishingly lucky victory at Trenton (the Hessian general was handed a note from a local loyalist forewarning of the oncoming attack, but got drunk and didn't read the note until after he had been fatally wounded during the attack), things still went very back and forth, with some American victories and some British victories.

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Post by aukele on Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:09 am

I think I love america but its not like they were doing anything to us they werent doing to their other colonies or even themselves and yes i know we didnt have a say but we were a new colony and we rebelled like a bunch of bitches at the smallest taxes which we pay now anyway and for everything i personally think the war should never have happened and if the french didnt see a chance to piss their arch enemy off even more by helping us while at war with them themselves i sincerely think the british wouldvewon that war

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Post by Toaster on Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:23 pm

aukele wrote:I think I love america but its not like they were doing anything to us they werent doing to their other colonies or even themselves and yes i know we didnt have a say but we were a new colony and we rebelled like a bunch of bitches at the smallest taxes which we pay now anyway and for everything i personally think the war should never have happened and if the french didnt see a chance to piss their arch enemy off even more by helping us while at war with them themselves i sincerely think the british wouldvewon that war

But it was stated in the BRITISH BILL OF RIGHTS that no man shall be taxed without political representation. Every other English colony had representation, and in spite of our calmer requests, the British did not give us the same treatment.
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Post by Dud Doodoo on Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:36 pm

In response to OP's question, presuming he asks it in an ideological sense, we were the rightful victors. Our revolution was entirely justified as we were oppressed by what had become a completely foreign power with an agenda conflicting with our own. The British wanted both economic and military dominance over the world, while we simply wanted to live with the rights and freedoms of other nations as was our right. I see this as a righteous cause for a revolution.

Even so, our existence ever since has been hypocritical and counterproductive to all of our talk about freedom. Shortly after our own revolution the French who had helped us during the war, had followed in our footsteps and rebelled. When they asked us for assistance, what did we do? Did we rush to their aid and fight alongside our old friends in the name of freedom which we had so recently founded a new nation upon? Of course not, we ignored them, for we had already gotten what we wanted for ourselves. American media has long been shouting "freedom" and portraying our nation as the single bastion of hope and human rights in all of the world. If we were such a thing, why didn't we grant the south succession from a nation they no longer wanted to be a part of? Why do we defend Israel in one of the most illegal and oppressive occupations in the modern world? I know we generally try to do good and police the world for the better, but the term "freedom" is far over used for a nation with such a history.

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:59 pm

Dud Doodoo wrote:Even so, our existence ever since has been hypocritical and counterproductive to all of our talk about freedom. Shortly after our own revolution the French who had helped us during the war, had followed in our footsteps and rebelled. When they asked us for assistance, what did we do? Did we rush to their aid and fight alongside our old friends in the name of freedom which we had so recently founded a new nation upon? Of course not, we ignored them, for we had already gotten what we wanted for ourselves.
The French MONARCHY helped us, and it was the French Monarchy that was in trouble. Either way we went in, we would have been betraying our values.
Second, considering that the French Revolutionaries were the very antitheses of what America stood for, it hardly deserved our aid.

Dud Doodoo wrote:American media has long been shouting "freedom" and portraying our nation as the single bastion of hope and human rights in all of the world. If we were such a thing, why didn't we grant the south succession from a nation they no longer wanted to be a part of?
Because they had representation, which is what we rebelled over. Besides, since they were slaveholders themselves, whereas much of the North had eliminated it.

Dud Doodoo wrote:Why do we defend Israel in one of the most illegal and oppressive occupations in the modern world? I know we generally try to do good and police the world for the better, but the term "freedom" is far over used for a nation with such a history.
Illegal?
The Palistineans don't own the land. And since they were the ones who struck first...
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Post by CivBase on Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:57 pm

Well, the way I see it... Britain was the most powerful country in the world as far as war went. However, the only people playing by the rules of typical warfare were the troops of the Continental Army. However, the local militias and other patriots did not line up and shoot like idiots.

The colonists had people all over that hated the British and were willing to fight. Many, however, didn't want to join the army (for unsurprising reasons). I think that these people are the reason that the Continental Army emerged victorious in the end.

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Post by Chuckles on Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:25 pm

The British lost because they started crying when the Americans wouldn't get into ranks, march up until both Armies' first ranks were ten feet apart and then start taking turns shooting at each other.

War was more like a polite way of murder in their minds...

Edit: When you think about it, Americans have really revolutionized warfare throughout history, especially with the iron-hide ships...
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Post by Gold Spartan on Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:29 pm

Trying to lay down marshal law on colonies that had mainly governed themselves for 100+ years THEN taxing them without colonist representation. [sarcasm]Yeah, smart move England.[/sarcasm].
England couldve won if someone besides insane King George III was king. The war probably could've been avoided if he gave them some representation in laws on the colonies like the British Bill of Rights said they would.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:45 pm

Gold wrote:Lowering taxes that Colonists had been evading and then invoking marital law on a city that had devolved to chaos and was being run by thugs. [sarcasm]Yeah, smart move England.[/sarcasm].
England couldve won if someone besides insane King George III was king. The war probably could've been avoided if he gave them some representation in laws on the colonies like the British Bill of Rights said they would.

Fixed.

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Post by Vigil on Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:01 am

And if we had really had brought the hammer down on you, espically in our later days when we were a fully fledged empire.

I wonder what would of happened if the world wars hadn't have happened, as they are what ruined us, both finnacially and our military might.

We might have had a similar feud that you and Russia had.

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Post by CivBase on Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:46 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Gold wrote:Lowering taxes that Colonists had been evading and then invoking marital law on a city that had devolved to chaos and was being run by thugs. [sarcasm]Yeah, smart move England.[/sarcasm].
England couldve won if someone besides insane King George III was king. The war probably could've been avoided if he gave them some representation in laws on the colonies like the British Bill of Rights said they would.

Fixed.
It's not a good idea to give a complaining child their way again and again and again... and then pull out the paddle. That genearallly creates retaliation.

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Post by BBJynne on Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:35 pm

Britain could have supported the South in the civil war but I think they had decided to just not get involved by then.

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Post by KrAzY on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:23 pm

Britain did support the south in the civil war
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Post by BBJynne on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:24 pm

not anywhere near as much as they could have

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:48 pm

KrAzY wrote:Britain did support the south in the civil war
For a while.
Whereas the Southerners and the Brits got along well, and the Secession was a black eye for the Americans, which the Brits wanted.
But the Southerners were also pretty arrogant towards the Brits (Cotton is King) and they were pro-slavery, which went against popular opinion in Britain.
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Post by laxspartan007 on Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:55 am

some of you should look up history, its so easy a caveman can do it... Razz
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Post by Gold Spartan on Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:30 am

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
KrAzY wrote:Britain did support the south in the civil war
For a while.
Whereas the Southerners and the Brits got along well, and the Secession was a black eye for the Americans, which the Brits wanted.
But the Southerners were also pretty arrogant towards the Brits (Cotton is King) and they were pro-slavery, which went against popular opinion in Britain.
well, when your a bunch of farmers kicking the Union's ass,that probably going to happen.

and before anyone says, yes, I'm speaking of the Early Civil War.
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Post by laxspartan007 on Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:31 pm

your speaking of the early civil war...
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