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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:05 pm

And worst case scenario, Chuckles sees these holes, brings them up with his family and the excommunicate him? That's your logic. So using that logic you could ruin the kids life by proceeding.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:28 pm

Chuckles seems to be very adamant that his family would never excommunicate him, so hopefully not. And frankly, as a Christian, I am more concerned with his eternal salvation than his life. What doth it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul, and all that whatnot. If he were to be excommunicated, I would be sad, but I would not regret my actions.

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:46 pm

So you feel that his religion is wrong and yours is right. And Chuckles believes his religion is right and yours is wrong. Do you see the picture here? Every religion thinks the other one is wrong and they are right. They have bibles just like you telling them right from wrong. What makes your religion right and Chuckles religion wrong?

I will be straight with you. I'm agnostic leaning toward the atheist side. When I told my parents that I don't specifically believe in God but I do believe that there is a higher power they told me I was going to hell.

So because I don't specifically believe in God I am damned. No matter how many good things I do, no matter how much I sacrifice to be a better person. I am still going to hell because I don't believe in their God.

There are reasons why I do not believe in God but I do not wish to go into them at this point.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:03 am

The difference, Leafy, is observed history, archeology, and very simple chemistry. You can read back through the thread, if you'd like. Where Christianity sometimes runs afoul with humanistic "science," Mormonism runs afoul with the things I listed above. Claims that it makes seem to directly contradict what all archeological evidence suggests, as well as what we know to be true based on recorded history.

And the reason you would be going to Hell for agnosticism is because you aren't perfect. None of us are. No matter how much one strives to be good, he never really is. We are inherently evil, despite how hard we try not to be. I sin, you sin, Chuckles sins, as does everyone else.

Because God is perfect, he couldn't just let sinners into Heaven. There is a price to pay. So God paid the price through Jesus's death. All one has to do is accept Christ as your savior, and you can get into Heaven.

So it isn't really that you believe in God that's holding you back. Satan believes in God too, after all. It's your own imperfect nature as a human. All you've got to do is accept Christ. I know I probably sound ridiculous to you, but I don't particularly mind. I understand how you must feel, as, like I've said, agnosticism is certainly the most logical conclusion anyone can reach, based purely on the facts. I just figured I'd clarify why your parents told you you were going to Hell.

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:29 am

Trust me, my dad is on the fanatic side of Christianity. He spent an entire 3 hours telling me things and me just sitting there and listening. He wouldn't even let me talk.

But all I am trying to say is I believe in what I want to believe, you believe in what you want to, and Chuckles believes in what he wants to. Not matter what is said no one is going to change their minds.

To the best of my knowledge God has a plan for everyone and puts everyone through a specific path. My dad has told me that God has my life planned out for me since before I was conceived. If that is so then God must have planed for me to be Agnostic, you the be Christian, and Chuckles to be Mormon.

I may be wrong but I believe that there is one God, but we as flawed beings split that religion in many others trying to get it right.
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Post by Death no More on Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:35 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:The difference, Leafy, is observed history, archeology, and very simple chemistry. You can read back through the thread, if you'd like. Where Christianity sometimes runs afoul with humanistic "science," Mormonism runs afoul with the things I listed above. Claims that it makes seem to directly contradict what all archeological evidence suggests, as well as what we know to be true based on recorded history.

And the reason you would be going to Hell for agnosticism is because you aren't perfect. None of us are. No matter how much one strives to be good, he never really is. We are inherently evil, despite how hard we try not to be. I sin, you sin, Chuckles sins, as does everyone else.

Because God is perfect, he couldn't just let sinners into Heaven. There is a price to pay. So God paid the price through Jesus's death. All one has to do is accept Christ as your savior, and you can get into Heaven.

So it isn't really that you believe in God that's holding you back. Satan believes in God too, after all. It's your own imperfect nature as a human. All you've got to do is accept Christ. I know I probably sound ridiculous to you, but I don't particularly mind. I understand how you must feel, as, like I've said, agnosticism is certainly the most logical conclusion anyone can reach, based purely on the facts. I just figured I'd clarify why your parents told you you were going to Hell.
No Rot a person of a different faith than Islam, Christianity, and Judaism can still go to heaven, although it might be harder for them since not believing in Christ/God is a mortal sin.
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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:29 pm

Well when you think about it. All religions say they are the only way to get into heaven. So how can they all be right saying all the others are wrong?

It brings me back to my first point. Religion is about faith in believing in something you cant see of control. Everyone has their own and every religion appeals to different people. Not everyone is going to want to be christian and not everyone is going to want to be a Mormon.
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Post by Gauz on Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:41 pm

I'm gay.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:50 pm

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Trust me, my dad is on the fanatic side of Christianity. He spent an entire 3 hours telling me things and me just sitting there and listening. He wouldn't even let me talk.

But all I am trying to say is I believe in what I want to believe, you believe in what you want to, and Chuckles believes in what he wants to. Not matter what is said no one is going to change their minds.

People convert from one religion to another all the time. It's just not as common as agnostics/atheists converting.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:To the best of my knowledge God has a plan for everyone and puts everyone through a specific path. My dad has told me that God has my life planned out for me since before I was conceived. If that is so then God must have planed for me to be Agnostic, you the be Christian, and Chuckles to be Mormon.

I may be wrong but I believe that there is one God, but we as flawed beings split that religion in many others trying to get it right.

God plans our lives, but he also gives us free will and the ability to stray from that path.

Death no more wrote:No Rot a person of a different faith than Islam, Christianity, and Judaism can still go to heaven, although it might be harder for them since not believing in Christ/God is a mortal sin.

The Bible seems to dictate otherwise.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Well when you think about it. All religions say they are the only way to get into heaven. So how can they all be right saying all the others are wrong?

Actually, there are a handful of religions that, while saying they are the most right, say that others will still get to Heaven. For example, Catholics believe that other Christians denominations and even Muslims will go to Heaven if they are "good" enough. I believe Islam has a similar teaching.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:It brings me back to my first point. Religion is about faith in believing in something you cant see of control. Everyone has their own and every religion appeals to different people. Not everyone is going to want to be christian and not everyone is going to want to be a Mormon.

Yes, but some of those faiths have some serious holes, which is the problem we're addressing here.

Gauz wrote:I'm gay.

You're in my territory now, bitch.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:54 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:52 pm

So we basically don't know if the plan we are on is the right one? We may think we are on Gods path but since we can stray how can we be sure?
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:54 pm

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:So we basically don't know if the plan we are on is the right one? We may think we are on Gods path but since we can stray how can we be sure?

Enter Bible, stage left.

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:01 pm

Enter Koran, Enter Ladder Day Saints, Enter all the Scientology books.

Every religion has their own religious text. It's hard to know that you are on the right path. Besides the bible has been translated so many times how do we know the meaning hasn't changed along with it?
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:06 pm

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Enter Koran, Enter Ladder Day Saints, Enter all the Scientology books.

Ironically, the Bible just so happens to predate all of those books, and of the three religions you named, two actually are supposed to be branches from the Bible, and the third was intended to be a work of fiction, but the writer thought it was so crazy that it must be real.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Every religion has their own religious text. It's hard to know that you are on the right path. Besides the bible has been translated so many times how do we know the meaning hasn't changed along with it?

Which isn't exactly true. The Bible is the best documented historic document out there. We know the Bible's accuracy to be true better than any other single document. Example: Homer's Illiad is less likely to be true to the original than the Bible. And if every single Bible was suddenly destroyed, all at once, we'd be able to piece the entire thing together by way of other ancient texts which quote specific scripture. Viva la Dead Sea Scrolls!

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Post by LeafyOwNu2 on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:12 pm

There is still the translation issue. It has been translated so many times, how can we be sure the meaning is still there?
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Post by Gauz on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:16 pm

I'm still gay. Just letting you know.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:17 pm

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:There is still the translation issue. It has been translated so many times, how can we be sure the meaning is still there?

Because we have extremely old versions of the Bible, which, upon direct translation, say practically the exact same thing as the Bible itself.

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Post by Gauz on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:19 pm

So I can't give my opinoin in the debate section now?

Cool.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:22 pm

You can't troll, no.

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Post by Gauz on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:27 pm

That was a joke, as I knew no one would like what I said. But it was still a comment that related to the topic and shouldn't of been deleted.


Or you can run the forum like a communist.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:35 pm

This is the debate section, not the make-arbitrary-comments-to-piss-people-off section. If you're going to state an opinion that you know won't be well accepted in a discussion about religion, try backing it up with evidence or something. Otherwise, I'll consider it trolling.

If I came in here, having not been in here, and was like "Mormonism is stupid," I'd be trolling, whether or not that is my actual view. But I came in here, stated that I believe Mormonism to be wrong, and then backed it up with evidence. That is the key difference, Gauz.

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Post by Gauz on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:51 pm

I said "fuck heaven" so I guess that's my opinoin. My back up was (in my opinion)"live life to the fullest, you only have one." I could understand that being such a short comment, you could've taken it for intentional trolling; however, it wasn't.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:20 pm

Actually, it was the [troll] tags you put around your statement that clued me in.

And Gauz, fuck Heaven is not an opinion, but a statement. The opinion was the next part. Telling people to "live life to the fullest" is not evidence of "fuck Heaven." That doesn't even make sense!

You now may choose to either stfu, gtfo, or contribute. Anything else will be considered trolling, whether or not you like it. If you want to call me a communist, well, be my guest. That's just more trolling, if you ask me.

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Post by Gauz on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:11 pm

The troll tag was a joke, no one was really supposed to get it though... (great joke huh?)

I put it there because most people would think of my post as an attempt to troll. Perhaps I should refphrase myself, I don't personally associate myself with the belief that there is a heaven. Why? Because there isn't evidence to support it and I would much rather live my life how I would want to to maxamize the pleasurable experience rather then waste my time attempting to get into something that may just be fiction.

That is what I meant.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:19 pm

See. Now was that so hard?

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Post by Gauz on Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:20 pm

Whatever
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