KN's Guide to Fixing the Country

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Post by KristallNacht on Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:15 pm

RL, you don't pay attention at all


first off, marijuana doesn't have to be smoked. hell its illegal to grow industrial hemp which you can't even get high off in this country.

second, there are zero cases of marijuana causing lung cancer.

third, there are zero cases of marijuana causing death.


so yea, marijuana isn't bad for you.

and when it comes to addiction, something being less addictive than caffeine is essentially calling it non addictive, because when it comes down to it, EVERYTHING is addicting. We're talking serious withdrawals that make it really difficult to quit even when the user WANTS to quit, like with cigarettes and alcoholics.

Habitual use =/= addiction


seriously, you people that think marijuana is bad need to watch 'The Business Behind Getting High'

regardless of whether you smoke or not, its full of amazingly solid points.



and those of you wanting to suggest marijuana is damaging to your body, actually find cases where it is.
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Post by Ringleader on Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:52 pm

RL, you don't pay attention at all

Of course, how can I disagree with you and be correct.


first off, marijuana doesn't have to be smoked. hell its illegal to grow industrial hemp which you can't even get high off in this country.

No kidding, I guess that is why they say its illegal...

You know what, try, try and use that argument to get it passed and see how far you get...

It doesn't have to be smoked, heck there are all sorts of nifty things you can make with it, like this eco friendly shopping bags!

You know the only reason that the common American would use it is to get a buzz, why would you even suggest an alternative usage with such a simple fact staring you right in the face... Legalizing it for all, but in the end, only the medical industry and the what? clothing industry would do something productive with it.

second, there are zero cases of marijuana causing lung cancer.

third, there are zero cases of marijuana causing death.


so yea, marijuana isn't bad for you.

It may be impossible to OD, but people that have become intoxicated can cause fatal car accidents just like drunk driving.

smoke contains tar and other carcinogens, which are bad for you, why can you not get this? I know people who smoke weed and when they run track, they form a little group at the back because they cant keep up... because their lungs are damaged, which is something they admitted and knew.

THC is an anticarcinogen, but the smoke is a carcinogen, so why not isolate the THC, I hear all these wonderful things that it does, but the only reason people use it is to get a buzz. The medical interest is a convenient fact that will never come to practice because of the other properties of weed. There is not as much interest in science or medicine then simply getting high.

and when it comes to addiction, something being less addictive than caffeine is essentially calling it non addictive, because when it comes down to it, EVERYTHING is addicting. We're talking serious withdrawals that make it really difficult to quit even when the user WANTS to quit, like with cigarettes and alcoholics.

I guess that is why 50% of Americans drink coffee every day. Caffeine is still addictive, and readily available, and you do experience withdrawal without coffee (caffeine). In the short term you experience withdrawal from Marijuana usage, but not in the long term, despite neurological alteration.

Habitual use =/= addiction

1% of Americans use Marijuana every day, that is one in every 100 or 3 million, that is still a lot of people, about 10% of the habitual users.


seriously, you people that think marijuana is bad need to watch 'The Business Behind Getting High'

Yeah, thats what they say.

regardless of whether you smoke or not, its full of amazingly solid points.



and those of you wanting to suggest marijuana is damaging to your body, actually find cases where it is.

Well, smoke cant be good for your lungs, no matter what sort of magical properties whatever you are smoking has. So whoever has lungs and inhales smoke is having damage inflicted upon their lungs.

And still, you have not explained how this would fix the country, and you wont because it makes no logical sense. and until you event try to explain this elaborate scheme then there is no point in reasoning what cant be reasoned with.
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Post by KristallNacht on Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:47 pm

Ringleader wrote:
Well, smoke cant be good for your lungs, no matter what sort of magical properties whatever you are smoking has. So whoever has lungs and inhales smoke is having damage inflicted upon their lungs.

And still, you have not explained how this would fix the country, and you wont because it makes no logical sense. and until you event try to explain this elaborate scheme then there is no point in reasoning what cant be reasoned with.

we aren't talking about smoke here, we're talking about marijuana. and why are cigarettes and alcohol legal when marijuana does far less damage than them?

the medical companies have tried to make THC meds but they don't work the same as the real thing. WATCH THE BUSINESS BEHIND GETTING HIGH.

I've gone over how it helps to fix the country many times.

it lessens the strain on our prison systems, saving our country money.

it frees up the narcotics budget to fight actually harmful substances.

hemp paper lasts hundreds of years longer than normal paper, and is easier to make, effectively eliminating deforestation.


maybe you should try coming up with reasons why leaving marijuana illegal benefits the country. I'm all ears.
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Post by JB on Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:18 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
Ringleader wrote:
Well, smoke cant be good for your lungs, no matter what sort of magical properties whatever you are smoking has. So whoever has lungs and inhales smoke is having damage inflicted upon their lungs.

we aren't talking about smoke here, we're talking about marijuana. and why are cigarettes and alcohol legal when marijuana does far less damage than them?

the medical companies have tried to make THC meds but they don't work the same as the real thing. WATCH THE BUSINESS BEHIND GETTING HIGH.

I've gone over how it helps to fix the country many times.

it lessens the strain on our prison systems, saving our country money.

it frees up the narcotics budget to fight actually harmful substances.

hemp paper lasts hundreds of years longer than normal paper, and is easier to make, effectively eliminating deforestation.


maybe you should try coming up with reasons why leaving marijuana illegal benefits the country. I'm all ears.

1. Well making marijuana legal would have its benefits like you said, they could tax the hell outa it which would cause the more irresponisble people to actually have to work harder for it, and it would help the economy.
2. Also taking this out of the narcotics budget would be a big plus since they use I think it was about 48% of it on marijuana cases every year or whatever it was.
3. They could make people have liscenses to distribute it which would also make people have to pay money to get the liscense for it which would also help.
4. If the government was a big part in making the distributions of it then it would also give them more money for it.
5. Using the drug reduces stress immensly even if for a while, but none-the-less it can help that way too

Cons for it however are slightly a bit more overpowering in some ways. (no I'm not neutral on it, but I look at it from both sides)
Most of the cons are health related but thats the persons choice I suppose.

1. It has more tar in it then a cigarette does.
2. Dumb/irresponisble people using it are more prone to do irresponisble things and putting themselves and others in danger
3. It would increase deaths of people who use it while opperating motor vehicles
4. It would be easy for minors to get their hands on it
5. People who have used it have reported signs of lower brain functionality and slower reaction time and so on earlier then people who have been life smokers or long time problem drinkers.

Personally depending on the way it would be introduced would decide whether or not im for it or against it. If its introduced to benefit the economy more, then im for it. If its there to help the addict get his/her hands on it then im against it.
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Post by KristallNacht on Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:50 pm

JB wrote:
1. It has more tar in it then a cigarette does.

which hasn't actually proven to really do much besides reduce lung capacity.

2. Dumb/irresponisble people using it are more prone to do irresponisble things and putting themselves and others in danger

actually, people that are high are less likely to take action since marijuana causes contentedness which manifests in lethargy. besides, alcohol has far more irresponsibility associated with it.

3. It would increase deaths of people who use it while opperating motor vehicles

not true. the people that use it now while operating motor vehicles are just as likely to die as people that use it while operating motor vehicles if its legal. and its still half as likely as drivers under the influence of alcohol.

4. It would be easy for minors to get their hands on it

it would actually be harder than it is now. in highschool its FAR more easy to get your hands on marijuana than it is to get your hands on alcohol.


5. People who have used it have reported signs of lower brain functionality and slower reaction time and so on earlier then people who have been life smokers or long time problem drinkers.

this all depends. Doug Benson got a higher SAT score high than clean.
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Post by Ziggy on Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:52 am

Your other points are valid on marijuana, but saying that it doesn't cause any health concerns is a bit misguided.

Firstly, you've most likely heard about how it has a very high percentage of bringing out scizophrenia and scizophrenic tendencies in those who have scizophrenia in previous generations. If your mother or father has scizophrenia and you smoke marijuana, the chance of your scizophrenia displaying tendencies and symptoms will massively increase.

Second, like the majority of other drugs, it damages your brain after prolonged use. I forget exactly how marijuana does it, but I know that it does damage your brain if you smoke it for an extended period of time.

Third, marijuana has a strong impact on your mental health. If you've got depression, anxiety, scizophrenia or any other mental issue, marijuana has a high chance of worsening it severely. It can also cause depression and anxiety.

When you think about those issues, and there are a few more but I totally mind blanked when writing that last one and forget the rest, you should realise that smoking marijuana causes no significant gain to society, and only impedes the performance of the healthcare system. That's basic utilitarianism. If it's providing nothing but cons, it's not worth legalising.

That's not to say that they should spend countless tax-payers' dollars to eradicate the issue though, I'm just saying if they legalised it, you'd have a lot more marijuana consumers, and a consequent additional strain on the healthcare system that is (apparently) already pretty shit in America.

tl;dr - marijuana doesn't bring anything beneficial to society, it just causes more issues that may seem quite minor, but are still unnecessary.
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Post by KristallNacht on Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:48 am

Ziggy wrote:Your other points are valid on marijuana, but saying that it doesn't cause any health concerns is a bit misguided.

i said hasn't proven to.

Firstly, you've most likely heard about how it has a very high percentage of bringing out scizophrenia and scizophrenic tendencies in those who have scizophrenia in previous generations. If your mother or father has scizophrenia and you smoke marijuana, the chance of your scizophrenia displaying tendencies and symptoms will massively increase.

but you already have to be schizophrenic

Second, like the majority of other drugs, it damages your brain after prolonged use. I forget exactly how marijuana does it, but I know that it does damage your brain if you smoke it for an extended period of time.

this is actually false. the study said that after providing monkeys with marijuana regularly for 90 dies, and then performing autopsies on the monkeys showed brain damage.

what was then released 5 years later was the specifics of how the monkeys got the marijuana which was through a marijuana smoke filled mask place on the monkeys for 5 minutes every day for 90 days. they basically suffocated the monkeys. and whats the first thing that happens when your brain can't get oxygen? it dies.

so by all means, that study is totally stacked and thus null and void.

Third, marijuana has a strong impact on your mental health. If you've got depression, anxiety, scizophrenia or any other mental issue, marijuana has a high chance of worsening it severely. It can also cause depression and anxiety.

i've never heard of that. care to cite evidence?

That's not to say that they should spend countless tax-payers' dollars to eradicate the issue though, I'm just saying if they legalised it, you'd have a lot more marijuana consumers, and a consequent additional strain on the healthcare system that is (apparently) already pretty shit in America.

actually no. when alcohol was relegalized did more people start drinking and more issues begin with people over excessively drinking? quite the opposite in fact. Take the Netherlands for example. marijuana is legal and a smaller percent of the country uses it than in america.

and there are no proven health issues caused by marijuana use, and marijuana helps with lots of conditions so, based on EVIDENCE, legalizing marijuana would actually reduce the strain on the healthcare system.

and I've already explained a huge number of pros.

marijuana doesn't bring anything beneficial to society, it just causes more issues that may seem quite minor, but are still unnecessary.

so in short your message is "i didn't read any of the thread or at least selectively ignored all the stuff explaining marijuanas plethora of bonuses."?
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Post by Ziggy on Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:15 am

The thread is 6 pages of often incoherent rumble that's mostly irrelevant to the discussion of marijuana. I read a few pages, didn't see much discussion on marijuana. If you've listed some previously, my apologies, but I couldn't find them. It'd help if you listed them here.

Also, the thing with marijuana is that there is a shiteload of subjectivity in its application. It helps some people with depression, it worsens others depression, or it even causes depression. I've been reading up on it a little, and it's impossible to really come to any objective stance on the health-related effects of marijuana.

I still don't believe that if legalised, it'd help the health care system.

And your logic is slightly flawed when you allude to the lack of increase in alcohol consumption after it was relegalised. Check out the fallacies of logic and you might understand what I meant. Basically, you're alluding to one occurence (The Netherlands) and trying to make a relation between the two, even though they're A) different things, B) occured at different times and places and C) are highly subjective. Don't take that personally; I'm just saying your logic is slightly flawed. Everybody seems to take everything so personally on this forum. I haven't seen a single argument or debate on this forum that hasn't turned into an ad hominem-laden shitstorm.

I do think that legalising marijuana would help with crime, because you'd wipe out one massive source of a lot of crimes, which is drug trafficking of marijuana leading to gangland wars which leads to murder, assault, theft and many more crimes.

Though I still keep my stance on the health issues related to marijuana in terms of mental disorders.
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Post by tiny tim on Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:04 pm

I have one thing to say about all of this smoking marijuana not causing death or disability: Smoke inhalation. You inhale the smoke, which is dangerous. The chemicals in smoke get in your blood stream, which is dangerous. The smoke coats the interior of your lungs, which is dangerous.

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Post by TNine on Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:36 pm

NT, i don't get how you can say Marijuana should be legal because alchohol is. Alcohol should be a illegal. The only real reason alcohol is legal is because it is a highly integrated part of our culture (my mom had wine for dinner, my dad is now watching TV with a beer, whenever we go out etc.) Almost everybody in the USA drinks alcohol, and most of those that don't drink it don't care for the issue.

Imagine the votes a Senator who swore to illegalize alcohol? Very low, i imagine.

Ciggarettes aren't mind-altering...
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Post by Ziggy on Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:31 pm

TNine wrote:NT, i don't get how you can say Marijuana should be legal because alchohol is. Alcohol should be a illegal. The only real reason alcohol is legal is because it is a highly integrated part of our culture (my mom had wine for dinner, my dad is now watching TV with a beer, whenever we go out etc.) Almost everybody in the USA drinks alcohol, and most of those that don't drink it don't care for the issue.

Imagine the votes a Senator who swore to illegalize alcohol? Very low, i imagine.

Ciggarettes aren't mind-altering...

Alcohol contributes to the official economy, and also a lot of alcohol is produced legally in America. Legalising marijuana would mean that marijuana would also contribute pretty strongly to the official economy, even more so if it does get produced in America. This is in comparison to marijuana currently only contributing to the unofficial economy, which drug trade falls under.

And about the smoke: bong perhaps? Studies show that bongs reduce the levels of nasty shit produced in tobacco and marijuana smoke.

And to your comment about cigarettes not being mind-altering, I give you one word: addiction.
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Post by TNine on Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:56 am

Ziggy wrote:
TNine wrote:NT, i don't get how you can say Marijuana should be legal because alchohol is. Alcohol should be a illegal. The only real reason alcohol is legal is because it is a highly integrated part of our culture (my mom had wine for dinner, my dad is now watching TV with a beer, whenever we go out etc.) Almost everybody in the USA drinks alcohol, and most of those that don't drink it don't care for the issue.

Imagine the votes a Senator who swore to illegalize alcohol? Very low, i imagine.

Ciggarettes aren't mind-altering...

Alcohol contributes to the official economy, and also a lot of alcohol is produced legally in America. Legalising marijuana would mean that marijuana would also contribute pretty strongly to the official economy, even more so if it does get produced in America. This is in comparison to marijuana currently only contributing to the unofficial economy, which drug trade falls under.

And about the smoke: bong perhaps? Studies show that bongs reduce the levels of nasty shit produced in tobacco and marijuana smoke.

And to your comment about cigarettes not being mind-altering, I give you one word: addiction.
1.) You totally ignored the first part of my post.

2.) Let me put it this way: Someone who smokes ciggarettes does not react any differently than someone who isn't, unless they are trying to withdrawal. I guess addiction is mind-altering, but you get the idea, you're just nit-picking.
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Post by KristallNacht on Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:43 pm

Ziggy wrote:
And your logic is slightly flawed when you allude to the lack of increase in alcohol consumption after it was relegalised. Check out the fallacies of logic and you might understand what I meant. Basically, you're alluding to one occurence (The Netherlands) and trying to make a relation between the two, even though they're A) different things, B) occured at different times and places and C) are highly subjective.

they are highly subjective yes.

and they aren't unrelated.

1 concerns a similar substance in america, the other concerns marijuana in a country with this law already passed.

you see how relevant that is?

no instead of saying "thats retarded" actually try to DISPROVE it. find something to SHOW that marijuana use would significantly rise at the detriment of the american people.


and health issues. isn't that a personal choice? HELL, marijuana is already marketed in the EXACT SAME FORM as on the streets as Medical Marijuana and is prescribed for over 200 medical conditions.

and there is also no evidence of marijuana having serious health issues that make it not safe for people to make their own decision about.

Marijuana doesn't take any years off your life. it doesn't cause cancer. it doesn't permanently damage your brain.


and once again pros:
+Hemp clothes last 4x as long as cotton, yet its illegal to grow in this country.
+Hemp Paper (like the declaration of independence) lasts tens of years longer than wood paper with less coloration and is easier and more efficient to make, effectively ending deforestation.
+Industrial Hemp is one of the single most efficient sources of biofuel, and in terms of the carbon footprint, 1 crop or hemp used as biofuel produces the same amount of CO2 that the crop removed from the atmosphere while alive.
+Being High makes people happy. They also learn to question their governments (which is why it was ilelgalized in the first place)
+In California, each person in prison costs over $40,000 a year. Over 1/5th of them are in for non violent drug crimes involving marijuana. Thus, legalizing marijuana reduces the strain on the prison system as well as frees up money to be spent on education.
+In British Columbia, 4/5ths of the Narcotics budget is used to regulate marijuana (using BC cause i know the stats for it, but the concept holds) leaving 1/5th to cover all the hard drugs, cocaine, heroin, meth.
+Legalizing marijuana reduces the number of users of hard drugs due to removing the trend of illicit buying and selling.


now, feel free to find a way to pick apart these arguments.
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Post by Angatar on Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:31 pm

British Columbia is in Canada, not the United States.

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Post by KristallNacht on Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:33 pm

Angatar wrote:British Columbia is in Canada, not the United States.

I'm aware.

are you aware I put parentheses to explain my use of BC instead of somewhere in the united states?
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Post by Angatar on Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:43 pm

I am aware you did that, but I see no reason to use it. There are 50 states, and you chose another a place in another country.

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Post by KristallNacht on Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:06 pm

omg...

I used BC BECAUSE I KNEW THE STATS FOR BC.

fucking idiot.

the point still stands that a large portion of the narcotics budget is used on marijuana, limiting the amount used on hard drugs.

is it really that difficult to understand?
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Post by Angatar on Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:45 pm

I THINK THAT EVERYONE ON EARTH SHOULD MOVE TO ANTARTICA BECAUSE THE SUN IS 1100 DEGREES!

Doesn't make much sense, does it?

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Post by RX on Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:04 pm

How is that relevant?
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Post by Vigil on Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:12 pm

He's trying to make NT's argument look stupid.

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Post by KristallNacht on Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:50 pm

Vigil wrote:He's trying to make NT's argument look stupid.

and failing.
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Post by Angatar on Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:52 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
Vigil wrote:He's trying to make NT's argument look stupid.

and failing.
Really now? You can't seem to prove me wrong.

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Post by KristallNacht on Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:15 pm

Angatar wrote:
Really now? You can't seem to prove me wrong.

except for the fact the sun is millions of miles away and BC is just across the border.
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Post by Angatar on Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:29 pm

They are still different places.

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Post by KristallNacht on Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:39 pm

barely different. not different enough to make the argument invalid.
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