KN's Guide to Fixing the Country

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Post by Ringleader on Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:32 pm

Ringleader wrote:
Well, smoke cant be good for your lungs, no matter what sort of magical properties whatever you are smoking has. So whoever has lungs and inhales smoke is having damage inflicted upon their lungs.

And still, you have not explained how this would fix the country, and you wont because it makes no logical sense. and until you event try to explain this elaborate scheme then there is no point in reasoning what cant be reasoned with.

we aren't talking about smoke here, we're talking about marijuana. and why are cigarettes and alcohol legal when marijuana does far less damage than them?

That does not fall in the dominion of your original point, which is legalizing marijuana. Is that your bounceback arguement for defending marijuana? Why not illegalize more dangerous substances? My answer is, that you did not bring that up in your original point.

If you are asking my personal opinion, I would say that in a perfect world, people should be able to do whatever they want. BUT, this is not a perfect world, and the acts of one person may effect someone else, for instance, I wouldn't have a problem with people getting as drunk as they want to, but then they get behind the wheel and kill me, and if it potentially affects me negatively, I am against it, as I should be. For weed, I don't like it for what it is, and what it does, and what it claims to do, as I will explain further down (in my own humble words).

the medical companies have tried to make THC meds but they don't work the same as the real thing. WATCH THE BUSINESS BEHIND GETTING HIGH.

Uumm, the medical industry has been made the fool in the film, and then their opinion on the practical use of medical marijuana somehow holds more water? First they are the bad guys, then they say they say that the best form is the natural form that, coincidentally enough, gets you high, perhaps the two are not mutually exclusive? You would be surprised how primitive our medical knowledge is now, our cure for cancer, is to physically cut it out, or fire radioactive beams at it, or poison it. I find it unlikely that they could simply conclude that something is the way it is. period... There will come a time when we can extract the derivatives of marijuana effectively (if they haven't already) and improve upon it greatly, and even with this, I find it very likely that those who use it (the majority of which to get high) will still yell and scream because they will hide behind the reason that the real deal somehow works better, even if we reach a level in medical knowledge that creates an opposite scenario.

A similar situation was discovering naturally occurring aspirin in white willow bark, I am sure they discovered this when they chewed on the bark for some reason when they got hurt. Eventually they isolated the active ingredient in it, and created aspirin tablets, with no fuss, no muss, no anything really, in fact, have you heard of white willows before? Has anyone ever gotten high from smoking white willow bark?

I've gone over how it helps to fix the country many times.

it lessens the strain on our prison systems, saving our country money.

For a Country that has virtually negative amounts of spending money, I do not think that money is that much of an issue, and it certainly will not "save the day" as it were, in terms of bringing the country out of its trillions of dollars of debt.

Strain is a comparison between the amount of resources you are willing to allocate to something, and the amount of resources you actually allocate to something. But for this case, it is simply a lag between the policy of drug laws, and the mass producing of prisons. The thing is, we can always build more prisons, at an even faster rate then people are born.

it frees up the narcotics budget to fight actually harmful substances.

money is not a solution to anything, especially fixing or country, the more an issue something is perceived to be, the more money will be allocated to it (it is surprisingly easy to assign infinite amounts of money to any project when you are in charge). If you were to legalize Marijuana does that automatically mean that there will be the same budget that included Marijuana as a target substance? I do not say money is not a problem simply because I am trying to evade the point of what you are saying, but when you are a certain United States government, and you have the power to create any runaway budget you want, money is literally not a problem.

Besides, when they throw money at problems, they really through them at the result of problems, and not the root cause, why do you suppose people feel that they need to use cocaine, heroin and even Marijuana?

hemp paper lasts hundreds of years longer than normal paper, and is easier to make, effectively eliminating deforestation.

I am sorry, are you planning on using hemp newspapers in 500 years? Perpetuation of already obsolete technology accomplishes nothing, it simply is just there. You could print your newspapers on sheets of kevlar, and it would last for thousands of years and be bulletproof... Logging as in paper logging? as in continually logging the same plots of land, and not cutting down nothing then the trees you grow on the same land already?

"According to British environmentalist Norman Myers, 5% of deforestation is due to cattle ranching, 19% due to over-heavy logging, 22% due to the growing sector of palm oil plantations, and 54% due to slash-and-burn farming."

maybe you should try coming up with reasons why leaving marijuana illegal benefits the country. I'm all ears.

What do you suppose Marijuana does for the average American? Are they going to print off sheets of hemp paper or perhaps utilize the medical application of weed? What will it do for them, knowing that they are simply going to use it to get high? It will give them a euphoric feeling and thats it. As simple as it may be, I personally believe there are huge ramifications behind changing your responsive thought to what have been a rewarding feeling. Rewarding feeling for what act? All people have a comparable level of reaction, you are happy when you solve a problem or see someone you like, or do something that can benefit you or your fellow man in some way. The defining element of a human being is adaptive nature, by adapting or altering unfavorable surroundings or situations, you by definition act humanely. Weed makes you happy, as though you in fact need to be happy as though you are in an unfavorable situation and instead of creating or thinking of something that needs to be done (a solution) in order to alter your surroundings in your favor, you instead choose to alter your perception of the reality of whatever events you are experiencing. I believe there is a highly specific reason why we are the way we are, it may involve god, it may not, who knows, it may involve us evolving into the living things we are now, but our system of thought, expectations, and satisfaction is either divine (and therefore perfect), or it is the result of billions of years of refinement, and is as it should be for what we are. This is why I am against the principle of using it in any way.

Why do they use it every day? "oh, it's habitual" That is not a good enough reason, would you classify breathing and eating as habitual? Do you need to use marijuana? That doesnt explain WHY they use it, it doesnt explain anything, you breath because you need oxygen, you eat so that you can nourish your body, WHY do you smoke weed every day?

That interview with the MS guy is an example of exactly WHY it should be not used as is. He was asked if it should be examined by the pharmaceutical companies and the high taken out. He responded that it was pathetic. But if it were to be tested and if there were to be a concentrated extract that can help his MS even more, then well, if it doesn't have the high to it, its not an acceptable option apparently, because instead of potential solving his problem completely, he prefers the happiness associated with getting high with the marijuana, a distilled solution is not acceptable, it is really a stumbling block to progression. Like you were saying with the hemp paper, why the heck do we need long lasting paper, when we now have the technology and industry to effectively eliminate paper usage all together? I mean, the speaker was talking about eliminating gasoline and replacing it with hemp biofuel... hmmmmmm, that certainly would be advantageous, but then he said eliminate nuclear power and replace it with hemp bio fuel... Again, distilling progression, why would we revert to burning fuel like cavemen when we can simply use nuclear reactors? Why use that when we could use solar and wind, and perhaps further unknown sources of energy? energy sources that will not become realized with such policy. The technological revolution floating around hemp is merely an illusion, because there is no revolution, it is simply refining a current and broken system. We can find nothing of this earth to truly satisfy our lust for technology and progression simply because it is boundless, we must continue to adapt and create as I said earlier, and things such as the so called benefits of non medical hemp are really stumbling blocks for the simple reason that the concept of every aspect of what it can offer us, in its finest form, is obsolete upon realization, biofuel, hemp paper, the lot of it. The wonders of the natural world will eventually seem like a bacterial colony multiplying in a petri dish in comparison with our unrivaled technological prowess, soon there will exist a supercomputer that will equal and surpass the computational capacity of the human brain, supposedly the most complex...thing... in the known universe, then there will exist a computer that will surpass the computational capacity of the entire human species, then perhaps will there exist a computer that can accurately model the evolutionary processes of entire the biological history of earth. What and where in this eventuality of discovery does marijuana play a part in?

Medicine is good for an individual, but is it really good for humanity? Not to sound like a eugenic Nazi or anything, but medicine is in itself a cheat, you are cheating evolution in some way. You could argue that it is good in that it helps people, but then you could say that it is bad in that it creates a population that have weaker and weaker immune systems and that are dependent on medical substances. We must find our solutions within, and we must not become dependent on anything. I am dependent on my eyeglasses to see, and medicine to help with my allergies, and I really don't like either one to be frank, makes me wish that my grandparents grandparent didn't rely on them to put them in an unnatural place so that I may be saved from being dependent, but, then I guess I wouldn't exist in the first place? I guess this is the part people cannot seem to comprehend when it comes to utility in heredity and how medicine, like marijuana, can only serve to hamper this.

From my perspective, I do not want to have kids that have any defects, that I gave them, even if that means I remove my role as their creator (not having kids). and from their perspective, they probably will not want parents that gave them defective genes in the first place. Where is the breakdown in understanding here? well, medicine basically creates an unlikely scenario of survival of the fittest, fattest, and everyone under the sun. I am considerate enough to know what is good for people more so then they do, and medicine is definitely not good for people, certainly not as good as it is for a person, we would live in a world that thinks that we can solve the problem of starvation in these countries where people have 20 children in a family...

Diseases are there own cure in a sense, when a person dies from a disease, so does the disease, and so does the disease that would have plagued their would be children and children's children. When we choose to medicate, we are essentially creating a much broader problem of which there is only two solutions: eliminate disease everywhere, or leave things to the way they once were. You see, by using medicine, we are simply putting off what should happen to us, and what should have happened to our ancestors. Imagine the state of the human body in 500 years, I anticipate everyone living in plastic bubbles. If marijuana is one of these medicines, then it will probably create these outcomes.

So, Yeah
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Post by KristallNacht on Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:22 am

I stopped half way through that due to two things.

1. you're acting on a moral basis of "what i do is right, and what they do is wrong, regardless of how the actions are pretty much the same"

2. you took arguments proposed by OTHER people as arguments being supported by me.



and for shits and giggles, and because its highly valid:

3. you have never proven yourself to be the most logical or thought out person.
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Post by Toaster on Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:43 am

RL wrote:A similar situation was discovering naturally occurring aspirin in white willow bark, I am sure they discovered this when they chewed on the bark for some reason when they got hurt. Eventually they isolated the active ingredient in it, and created aspirin tablets, with no fuss, no muss, no anything really, in fact, have you heard of white willows before? Has anyone ever gotten high from smoking white willow bark?

I'm sorry... are you saying that we should just stop complaining about marijuana being illegal, and just wait for some medical corporation to replicate it, and start making them rich?

How is that in any way right? Personal liberty anyone?
RL wrote:What do you suppose Marijuana does for the average American? Are they going to print off sheets of hemp paper or perhaps utilize the medical application of weed? What will it do for them, knowing that they are simply going to use it to get high? It will give them a euphoric feeling and thats it. As simple as it may be, I personally believe there are huge ramifications behind changing your responsive thought to what have been a rewarding feeling. Rewarding feeling for what act? All people have a comparable level of reaction, you are happy when you solve a problem or see someone you like, or do something that can benefit you or your fellow man in some way. The defining element of a human being is adaptive nature, by adapting or altering unfavorable surroundings or situations, you by definition act humanely. Weed makes you happy, as though you in fact need to be happy as though you are in an unfavorable situation and instead of creating or thinking of something that needs to be done (a solution) in order to alter your surroundings in your favor, you instead choose to alter your perception of the reality of whatever events you are experiencing.


Nice wall 'o text. So you think that... because marijuana gives you reward without sacrifice or hard work... it is a bad thing and should thus be illegal? Well I guess we should start cracking down on masturbation as well... fuck, that'll cost a shit ton of taxpayer dollars.

RL wrote:money is not a solution to anything, especially fixing or country, the more an issue something is perceived to be, the more money will be allocated to it (it is surprisingly easy to assign infinite amounts of money to any project when you are in charge). If you were to legalize Marijuana does that automatically mean that there will be the same budget that included Marijuana as a target substance? I do not say money is not a problem simply because I am trying to evade the point of what you are saying, but when you are a certain United States government, and you have the power to create any runaway budget you want, money is literally not a problem.

lol, I don't think you understand United States politics. Money may not be important to federal spending, but it's certainly important to getting things done. Marijuana remains to be illegal because of MONEY.

- Medical corporations can't patent a natural plant, and so they would not make anything off of marijuana.

- Privately owned prisons (that's right, we have private prisons) make LOADS of money off of keeping people in jail for marijuana related crimes

- People in the cotton and paper industries do not want a product like hemp competing with them

Lobbyists from all of these opposing groups are, like all lobbyists, making congressmen rich, and so Marijuana remains to be illegal. It's a wholly corrupt system.

RL wrote:Diseases are there own cure in a sense, when a person dies from a disease, so does the disease, and so does the disease that would have plagued their would be children and children's children. When we choose to medicate, we are essentially creating a much broader problem of which there is only two solutions: eliminate disease everywhere, or leave things to the way they once were. You see, by using medicine, we are simply putting off what should happen to us, and what should have happened to our ancestors. Imagine the state of the human body in 500 years, I anticipate everyone living in plastic bubbles. If marijuana is one of these medicines, then it will probably create these outcomes.

When it comes to people using marijuana for honest medical purposes... it is not a cure or a treatment. It's a fucking ANESTHETIC. It's there to relieve people from EXTREME PAIN.

If you were dying of cancer, I'm sure you'd love to light up a joint, and escape from the pain.

Either way, in response to the argument that medicine is bad for the human race because it perpetuates weakness... okay. If it weren't for medical science, Millions would still be dying from Smallpox and Polio... two diseases that we have WIPED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

Most of the diseases that pose a danger to us humans are not even hereditary. Do you understand how genetics work? It does not matter if you've lived in a bubble your entire life. If you cut off a rat's tail, its children will still have tails.

What you're saying about diseases only makes sense with hereditary diseases. Either way, this has NOTHING to do with marijuana.
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Post by Death no More on Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:37 am

The only reason why cigarettes and alcohol are even legal is because they are so deep into our society the damage of taking them out would be intolerable even if the benefits over ride the damage in the long term. Its like prohibition, and that didn't last now did it? Marijuana will never become incorporated in society, NT you should think of HOW it would get to legalization before saying what would happen if it was.
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Post by KristallNacht on Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:06 pm

Death no more wrote:Marijuana will never become incorporated in society

it already is. It's the single largest agricultural market and one of the single most used substances in the country. I'd go so far as to say more people smoke marijuana than eat food with tobasco sauce.


the only reason marijuana is illegal is that during the vietnam war, everyone that was doing anti-war rallies was smoking marijuana, and since the rallies were legal, the government needed to find a way to silence these people. Marijuana makes you think and question, things all governments don't want of their people.
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Post by Toaster on Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:08 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
Death no more wrote:Marijuana will never become incorporated in society

it already is. It's the single largest agricultural market and one of the single most used substances in the country. I'd go so far as to say more people smoke marijuana than eat food with tobasco sauce.

Yeah. I go to a high school where I'd say that at least 1/4 of the students smoke pot. It's certainly incorporated.
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Post by Ringleader on Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:25 pm

I had a response, by I guess I accidentally closed the window before finishing, or I accidentally shut down my PC instead of sending it to sleep (seriously, I'm not worming out of the argument), but because it takes to much time to restate my position, I will only say that I remain overwhelmingly dubious of marijuanas mystical ability to right our society. Drug usage is clearly the aftereffect of a much broader, and much greater, underlying social problem, one that will never get solved if we concern ourselves with only the aftermath instead of the root. So despite watching the film, I remain unconvinced.
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Post by Tylertlat on Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:49 pm

If i'm interupting the argument just ignore this, but I'd like to make an addition to this list (which, btw, i mostly agree with): implementing the Fair Tax. This is a policy which which replaces all current Federal taxation, with a 23% tax-inclusive sales tax. Houshold below the poverty line are given a monthly "prebate" rather than tax exemptions. The tax is implemented by the retailer, eliminating the need for the enormously expensive and complex I.R.S. (or at least drasticly reducing their work-load and complexity)
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Post by Death no More on Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:13 am

Tylertlat wrote:If i'm interrupting the argument just ignore this, but I'd like to make an addition to this list (which, btw, i mostly agree with): implementing the Fair Tax. This is a policy which which replaces all current Federal taxation, with a 23% tax-inclusive sales tax. Houshold below the poverty line are given a monthly "prebate" rather than tax exemptions. The tax is implemented by the retailer, eliminating the need for the enormously expensive and complex I.R.S. (or at least drastically reducing their work-load and complexity)
Well you actually have a plan ( a sane one). This would work better than NT's one by far.
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Post by KristallNacht on Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:27 pm

Death no more wrote:Well you actually have a plan ( a sane one). This would work better than NT's one by far.

yet you have been unable to actually point out negatives in my plan aside from minor health effects....
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Post by Chuckles on Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:39 pm

Um...there's the fact that marijuana is already considered a gateway drug.

I mean, druggies already have an easy enough time to introduce this to non-drug users. What do you think will happen when a gateway drug ends up on the shelves of 7-11?
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Post by Vigil on Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:45 am

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Post by Death no More on Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:49 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
Death no more wrote:Well you actually have a plan ( a sane one). This would work better than NT's one by far.

yet you have been unable to actually point out negatives in my plan aside from minor health effects....
Why should I? everyone else has already pointed out its flaws.
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Post by Ascendant Justice on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:13 pm

Death no more wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:
Death no more wrote:Well you actually have a plan ( a sane one). This would work better than NT's one by far.

yet you have been unable to actually point out negatives in my plan aside from minor health effects....
Why should I? everyone else has already pointed out its flaws.

But we want to see your opinion...
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Post by Angatar on Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:04 pm

Chuckles wrote:Um...there's the fact that marijuana is already considered a gateway drug.

I mean, druggies already have an easy enough time to introduce this to non-drug users. What do you think will happen when a gateway drug ends up on the shelves of 7-11?
It's a gateway drug because to get it you have to go to a drug dealer, and you're introduced to the others through that.

To answer your question, nothing serious would happen.

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Post by Ringleader on Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:52 pm

A lot of the time drug dealers will mix it with more addictive drugs, so that you become addicted, not on the Marijuana itself though.

In which case it would be better for a legitimate organization to sell and distribute it, so that is not a valid argument when trying to go against it.

Mainly the problem is that there is a specific reason why people use drugs (which people just don't seem to get gosh darn it!), and it 95% has to do with perception, your life is a mediocre mockery of familiarity and conformity, so you want a hit, or your so rich and grandiose, you want to elevate your feelings because nothing else can really do it as you conditioned yourself into an over the top, lavish livelihood (in essence, elevating your perception to an unrealistic, unsustainable level), in both cases it is a sociological problem, and instead of attacking it, instead of debasing the class system intentionally built into our society, we instead try to put a band aid on the severed head of our culture.

It is, in essence, mental medicine to treat an otherwise incurable problem, incurable because no one seems to understand or have the foresight to ask WHY people use drugs, THE SPECIFIC REASON WHY AN INDIVIDUAL FEELS THEY NEED TO USE DRUGS.

It's kind of ridiculous that you think that drugs are anything close to a fix for our country, I mean, what sort of thought process went into that? How can someone getting high possible generate a better nation? Hemp paper? Medical Marijuana? I thought this was a joke, because both of these things are completely and utterly obsolete by modern technology. Kind of amazing how the mind will make these connections and come up with these little ideas, "oh, lets print our books on hemp paper" while the thinking man says, "why use paper when we already have computers, laptops and cellphones that can deliver virtually all of the worlds collective information?", "oh, lets use straight Marijuana as a medicine, it makes me FEEL better." while the thinking man says "Yeah, thats your brain releasing chemicals that make you feel high, and medicine is typically not something you pull out of the ground, it would be best to refine it so its not just some snake oil, make me feel good solution to a potentially deliberating problem..."

Really, what I see in the cycle of drug usage is:

Social problem that makes people feel that they need to use drugs -> drug usage -> problem

and what other people believe:

hazy, unknown motivation (creative spark? need for medication? who knows?!) -> drug usage -> SOLUTIONS TO ALL PROBLEMS!!11!!!
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Post by Angatar on Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:08 pm

You completely ignored NT's points, didn't you, Ringleader?

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Post by Chuckles on Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:40 pm

Angatar wrote:
Chuckles wrote:Um...there's the fact that marijuana is already considered a gateway drug.

I mean, druggies already have an easy enough time to introduce this to non-drug users. What do you think will happen when a gateway drug ends up on the shelves of 7-11?
It's a gateway drug because to get it you have to go to a drug dealer, and you're introduced to the others through that.

To answer your question, nothing serious would happen.

Actually, the former non-drug user gets bored with the small high marijuana gives and gets hooked on something worse.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:48 pm

Essentially, the effects of marijuana on a long time user eventually become dulled, and the user pursued a more potent drug.

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Post by Ringleader on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:40 am

Angatar wrote:You completely ignored NT's points, didn't you, Ringleader?

What is with you sir? why must you intentionally ignore the cohesion between what I said and NT's original points? THERE IS A REASON WHY I ADDRESSED THE USES OF MARIJUANA IN MY POST, but that must be too complicated for you to understand, or you have utter disregard for information placed directly in front of you. What do our posts look like to you? braille or something?

Stop with the intentional ignorance.
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KN's Guide to Fixing the Country - Page 5 Empty Re: KN's Guide to Fixing the Country

Post by Angatar on Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:11 pm

Ringleader wrote:
Stop with the intentional ignorance.
Listen to your own advice.

On one of the first posts, maybe the first one, NT went in depth on how marijuana being legalized would help, I suggest you go reread it.

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KN's Guide to Fixing the Country - Page 5 Empty Re: KN's Guide to Fixing the Country

Post by Ringleader on Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:31 pm

Huh? how in depth do you think he went? Laughing

Bieng intentionally ignorent is dancing around a response and saying "you have said nothing to prove me wrong!" or the ever popular "You have yet to point out any negatives in my plan" even though, that is pretty much ALL we have been doing. You see, we can prove anything, but that doesn't mean you have the capacity or decency to accept it. I mean, you don't even acknowledge what I say, you think that my two pages worth of responses does not account for anything, because if you did, you will notice that... I HAVE RESPONDED TO ALL OF HIS POINTS!, if you would be so kind as to read my posts in this thread, perhaps you may realize that, but I doubt it. Seriously, pick something that NT said and that I have not addressed, do it!

I could say anything, prove it all wrong, and still: YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN ANYTHING, HAHAHAHAH!!!!!111!!!1!!

and as much as I would like to have one of your little 'I know you are, but what am I" debates with you, I can no longer accept your level of disregard for the entirety of the debate, you seriously pick one sentence, and ramble on it, or you just repeat your same stance, no matter how many times or the manner in which I address it, you will say the same thing.

You have parrot syndrome
Ringleader
Ringleader
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KN's Guide to Fixing the Country - Page 5 Empty Re: KN's Guide to Fixing the Country

Post by Angatar on Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:44 pm

How about instead of wasting your time trying to tell me I'm wrong, which I'm not, you go and look for yourself and prove NT wrong.

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KN's Guide to Fixing the Country - Page 5 Empty Re: KN's Guide to Fixing the Country

Post by Ringleader on Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:12 pm

you go and look for yourself and prove NT wrong.

I swear I am talking to a brick wall here, dude, seriously, have you even read any of my posts in this thread?

Obviously not.
Ringleader
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KN's Guide to Fixing the Country - Page 5 Empty Re: KN's Guide to Fixing the Country

Post by Angatar on Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:06 pm

Ringleader wrote:
you go and look for yourself and prove NT wrong.

I swear I am talking to a brick wall here, dude, seriously, have you even read any of my posts in this thread?

Obviously not.
I have read yours, but listen to my idea. Instead of being a lazy fuck, go back and figure out why it will help.

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