Universal Healthcare

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Post by CivBase on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:00 pm

Been a while. Let's debate.

So... it's stupid. I don't want to pay for other people's healthcare with my taxes just to find out that I get crappy care in return along with no care for some things. Example: If my aunt lived in Canada, she'd be dead. She has diabetes and people with diabetes in Canada don't get healthcare for it after a certain age.

Not to mention that if everyone has the same healthcare, hospitals can either raise their prices (so it's like not having care at all), or lay off doctors. Last I checked, less doctors with more patients is a really bad thing. Why do you think people in Canada have to wait six months for a checkup? By then, the flu would have killed you.

And who wants to go through college and then four more years of med school just to get payed the same salary as everyone else? That's a rip! Nobody's going to want to be a doctor.

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Post by Gold Spartan on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:06 pm

WHY should I have to pay for the healthcare of the homeless? Who got themselves on the street in the first place? WHY should I pay for the healthcare of an alcoholic out of job loser who got himself there in the first place? I SHOULDNT have to pay for their mistakes in life.
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Post by Nocbl2 on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:11 pm

I KNOW!
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Post by Gold Spartan on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:14 pm

We had a debate in class about this. Most of the responses, Because Obama said it's a good plan. ONE person responded that since their american, they should have healthcare even though THEY fucked up their lives.
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Post by tiny tim on Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:04 pm

I am sorry Gold, your class has officially drank the kool-aid.

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Post by KristallNacht on Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:09 pm

eh, i don't really look at the whole "why should i have to pay for X's healthcare?" thing

More importantly is the fact that universal healthcare only works in 1 country that has it, and that country is France. Where 1. People don't really need it cause they're pussies, and 2. Don't try to take advantage of things that are given to them.
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Post by czar on Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:01 pm

civ wrote:And who wants to go through college and then four more years of med school just to get payed the same salary as everyone else
communism
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Post by Toaster on Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:02 pm

Gold wrote:Because Obama said it's a good plan.

I realize that you might not be the one claiming this... but lets clarify some things first.

Universal Healthcare does not always mean government run healthcare. The UK and Canada have government run Healthcare.

Obama is not pushing for government run healthcare. In fact, aside from medicare/medicaid, what he's really pushing for is to regulate healthcare insurance providers, making sure that all people are able to receive care (no matter what pre-existing conditions they might have) and offering tax breaks to families that are paying for reasonable healthcare.

He also wants to improve medicare/medicaid, so that those unable to pay for insurance are able to receive quality healthcare.

He's not trying to create a socialist healthcare system.

Anyways, I agree that government run healthcare is not as efficient as a free market system, but as the industrial revolution proves to us all, Capitalism needs regulation to keep society together.

Civ wrote:who wants to go through college and then four more years of med school just to get payed the same salary as everyone else? That's a rip! Nobody's going to want to be a doctor.

Don't forget the internship and 5 year residency. To be fair though, they are still paid pretty well... just not exorbitantly.
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Post by Gold Spartan on Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:27 pm

No Recon, I'd sooner shoot myself in the foot then say I think Obama is what our country needs. Most of my school are Obama supporters, mainly for the reason he's black.
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Post by Ringleader on Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:08 am

It doesn't matter who they put in office, they really cant do or change things that much.
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Post by KristallNacht on Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:00 am

ntm, this whole universal healthcare doesn't matter.

According to Wal-Mart, over 90% of the citizens of this country have health insurance of some kind. NTM Wal-mart offers health insurance for cheap.
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Post by Toaster on Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:45 am

KristallNacht wrote:ntm, this whole universal healthcare doesn't matter.

According to Wal-Mart, over 90% of the citizens of this country have health insurance of some kind. NTM Wal-mart offers health insurance for cheap.

I believe it's something like 15% of Americans that don't have healthcare, and please don't credit Walmart for doing ANYTHING for their employees. They don't.

Besides, it's not just an issue of 'whether or not you have insurance.'

American Health insurance providers are EXTREMELY greedy, and will do anything they can to deny their clients care. Insured people often cannot even receive quality care. That's what needs to be fixed.
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:00 pm

Personally, I say this is a bad thing.
If you want to make health insurance more available, cap payments for "Pain and Suffering" on malpractice insurance, DELETE AND REINSTALL Medicare, and create a comprehensive law on what health insurers have to cover.

Then get to work on Social Security.
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Post by KristallNacht on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:09 pm

ReconToaster wrote:don't credit Walmart for doing ANYTHING for their employees.

I didn't. Wal-mart sells health insurance.
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Post by CivBase on Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:02 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
Gold wrote:Because Obama said it's a good plan.
I realize that you might not be the one claiming this... but lets clarify some things first.

Universal Healthcare does not always mean government run healthcare. The UK and Canada have government run Healthcare.
But in this case, it's government run.

ReconToaster wrote:Obama is not pushing for government run healthcare. In fact, aside from medicare/medicaid, what he's really pushing for is to regulate healthcare insurance providers, making sure that all people are able to receive care (no matter what pre-existing conditions they might have) and offering tax breaks to families that are paying for reasonable healthcare.
Really? Then why is a welfare-style health insurance setup going through congress over and over? And besides, pushing to destroy the limits on who can get healthcare will only raise prices, which defeats the whole point of it all.

ReconToaster wrote:He also wants to improve medicare/medicaid, so that those unable to pay for insurance are able to receive quality healthcare.
So he wants to force higher quality at lower prices with no restrictions on healthcare businesses? And this is not messed up how? He's going to put them out of business!

ReconToaster wrote:He's not trying to create a socialist healthcare system.
On the contrary, he is "adding the option" to get free healthcare through the government. However, we regulate monopolies for a reason. Healthcare companies can't compete with free, no matter how low-quality. Not to mention the fact that a very large portion of people get healthcare through their business's as a benefit, and why would a business pay for that sort of healthcare when there's free healthcare out there? Once the private healthcare companies go out of business, you KNOW that the quality of the government healthcare will only sink; but by then, it will be too late to turn around.

ReconToaster wrote:Anyways, I agree that government run healthcare is not as efficient as a free market system, but as the industrial revolution proves to us all, Capitalism needs regulation to keep society together.
I'm not saying capitalism should run 100% free. I realize capitalism needs regulation, but healthcare companies aren't doing anything really wrong. They're just expensive.

ReconToaster wrote:American Health insurance providers are EXTREMELY greedy, and will do anything they can to deny their clients care. Insured people often cannot even receive quality care. That's what needs to be fixed.
You obviously haven't actually dealt with an American insurance provider or our medical system before.

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Post by tiny tim on Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:44 pm

CivBase wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:
Gold wrote:Because Obama said it's a good plan.
I realize that you might not be the one claiming this... but lets clarify some things first.

Universal Healthcare does not always mean government run healthcare. The UK and Canada have government run Healthcare.
But in this case, it's government run.

ReconToaster wrote:Obama is not pushing for government run healthcare. In fact, aside from medicare/medicaid, what he's really pushing for is to regulate healthcare insurance providers, making sure that all people are able to receive care (no matter what pre-existing conditions they might have) and offering tax breaks to families that are paying for reasonable healthcare.
Really? Then why is a welfare-style health insurance setup going through congress over and over? And besides, pushing to destroy the limits on who can get healthcare will only raise prices, which defeats the whole point of it all.

ReconToaster wrote:He also wants to improve medicare/medicaid, so that those unable to pay for insurance are able to receive quality healthcare.
So he wants to force higher quality at lower prices with no restrictions on healthcare businesses? And this is not messed up how? He's going to put them out of business!

ReconToaster wrote:He's not trying to create a socialist healthcare system.
On the contrary, he is "adding the option" to get free healthcare through the government. However, we regulate monopolies for a reason. Healthcare companies can't compete with free, no matter how low-quality. Not to mention the fact that a very large portion of people get healthcare through their business's as a benefit, and why would a business pay for that sort of healthcare when there's free healthcare out there? Once the private healthcare companies go out of business, you KNOW that the quality of the government healthcare will only sink; but by then, it will be too late to turn around.

ReconToaster wrote:Anyways, I agree that government run healthcare is not as efficient as a free market system, but as the industrial revolution proves to us all, Capitalism needs regulation to keep society together.
I'm not saying capitalism should run 100% free. I realize capitalism needs regulation, but healthcare companies aren't doing anything really wrong. They're just expensive.

ReconToaster wrote:American Health insurance providers are EXTREMELY greedy, and will do anything they can to deny their clients care. Insured people often cannot even receive quality care. That's what needs to be fixed.
You obviously haven't actually dealt with an American insurance provider or our medical system before.

QFT!

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Post by Zaki90 on Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:10 am

Low income famililes are the only ones that should be receiving free or lower prices on health care. They have to apply for it though.

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Post by Ringleader on Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:12 am

Whatever they do, there will be something inherently flawed with it only to care for the NOW and not the LATER, but that wont matter because in another 40 or 50 years, a hero will 'rebuild" the crumbling health care system that that unknown failure of a leader put in action (clear the clogged plumbing) and then the same thing will happen again in the future, history is cyclical in that sense
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Post by Carcarius on Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:56 am

If the government gets rid of medicaid and Social security, i think universal national healthcare might be possible.
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Post by KristallNacht on Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:58 am

those things going away still won't make it work though lol

they just need to reform social security and other things like that.
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Post by CivBase on Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:35 pm

That's it? It's over? That was no fun...

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Post by dragoon9105 on Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:16 pm

Get back out there and kill each other! pacifism and compromise are for the weak.
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Post by CivBase on Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:24 pm

Fine... I guess I'll have to fight for the other team...


UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE IS AWESHUM! OBAMA SAID SO!! AND HE'Z BLACK, SO HE IS AWESHUM TWO!!! AND TEH AWESHUMNESS OV OBAMA AND UNIVERAL HEALTHCARE WIL MAKE OWR CUNTRY LIEK SHUUUPER AWESHUM!!!! AND MAYBEE THEN TEH MUSLUMZ ND KOREA WIL LUV US AYGEN!!!!! AWESHUM!!!!11!1!!!1!ONE1!!

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Post by Toaster on Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:33 pm

Sorry Civ. Wasn't paying attention.

Civ wrote:But in this case, it's government run.

You mean in the case of your proposed topic of discussion, or in the Case of the US healthcare system? Obama did not invent medicaid.

Civ wrote:pushing to destroy the limits on who can get healthcare will only raise prices, which defeats the whole point of it all.

What? Let me explain all of this to you.

- Obama wants to regulate insurance providers in order to make sure that they are not discriminating against the disabled, or people with pre-existing conditions.

As a result, insurance providers will raise prices...

- But Obama plans to improve medicaid, not to the point of being as high quality as plans provided by insurers, but to keep the insurance providers from charging too much for their services. If norton 360 only cost 10 dollars, you might use that instead of AVG free, because it is an all around more secure system. But, because Norton is so expensive, you cut your losses and got with AVG free.

- The above changes will likely only even out healthcare costs, so that they stay the same price as they are now, but for everyone. To lower costs, families that go with a reasonable health insurance policy (not a crazy, unnecessary one) will receive tax breaks.

- Large businesses are responsible for providing healthcare to their employees. That will not change. Businesses will not be able to use Medicaid for their employees. Only people without such beneficial jobs will be able to take advantage of such services.

Not a whole lot will change for the average working person. These changes are designed to improve healthcare for the less privileged, those who are without a job, and families who seek outside insurance.

Civ wrote:I'm not saying capitalism should run 100% free. I realize capitalism needs regulation, but healthcare companies aren't doing anything really wrong. They're just expensive.

They're VERY expensive in comparison to what they once were, and they're not doing their job in providing the quality of care that is promised to their customers. They are also not providing care to all Americans, which isn't their responsibility... but it's still something that needs to be done.

Civ wrote:You obviously haven't actually dealt with an American insurance provider or our medical system before.

I'm sorry that I haven't had much personal experience with healthcare insurance providers in my 16 years of life?


Last edited by ReconToaster on Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Cheese on Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:35 pm

The satire-o-meter is through the roof! Oh wait... that's the sarcasm detector...

Oh JESUS THE SATIRE-O-METER'S ON FIRE!!!

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