Embryonic Stem Cell Research (with embryos)

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Post by CivBase on Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:49 am

Haven't had this discussion in a while.

Killing babies is bad, even if it's for science. Yes, that sounds stupid, but it's true. Everyone calls embryo's "potential", but that's a major understatement. Embryo's have reached the point where they are as likely to die as a five-year-old child.

It boils down to where you draw the line for being human. Is it when the heart beats? Is it when brain function occurs? Is it when it gains self consciousness? Is it when the baby is born? Is it when it graduates from high school? My point is that these are all just random things that happen throughout growth, so what makes one more significant than the other?

"Self consciousness" is widely accepted as the drawn line, but is it okay to kill an unconscious man just because he won't realize it? Of course not!

And no, sperm and egg cells do not have the potential to become a human, only when together do they have that chance. Thus, unless they are together, they have zero potential and are not humans.

No human has ever been cured by embryonic stem cells to this day, only rats; and, in most of those cases, the only reason the rats were cured is because they grew the embryonic stem cells into adult stem cells.

Also, Japanese scientists have devised a way to turn skin cells into embryonic stem cells, so what's the point of using actual embryos? There is none.

Case and point: embryonic stem cells is a waste of time and money and is flat out wrong.

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Post by Toaster on Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:15 am

I honestly don't see how the majority of embryos used for stem cell research/procedures have the potential to grow into living human beings.

An embryo that is cloned from another... for the sheer purpose of science... as nearly all are... never had the potential to be born. They were created solely for the purpose of being harveste for their stem cells. Were it not for that purpose, they never would have been created in the first place.

I realize that there are other methods, but you can't deny the obvious benefits of having an endless supply of Stem Cells through the use of embryotic duplication.

Your statement about Embryotic Stem Cell Research never being responsible for a medical success is somewhat irrelevant, seeing as it is illegal in 22 states, and does not recieve any federal funding. Either way, it has certainly been indirectly helpful towards the progression of the methodology.

I am open to other methods, if only to shut up those preaching about 'immorality,' but I certainly don't think the practice is wrong, by any stretch of the word.
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Post by CivBase on Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:41 am

ReconToaster wrote:I honestly don't see how the majority of embryos used for stem cell research/procedures have the potential to grow into living human beings.

An embryo that is cloned from another... for the sheer purpose of science... as nearly all are... never had the potential to be born. They were created solely for the purpose of being harveste for their stem cells. Were it not for that purpose, they never would have been created in the first place.
In this case, you're adding environment to the potential. The body automatically cares for the embryo and thus potential is great, but without it being on the body, the embryo requires manual care.

In this case, you're suggesting that because nobody cares about the embryo becoming an adult, it has little to no potential, which is true. But in that case, we are still murdering it, as we are still the ones stopping it from becoming an adult.

ReconToaster wrote:I realize that there are other methods, but you can't deny the obvious benefits of having an endless supply of Stem Cells through the use of embryonic duplication.
Sure I can. We can clone adult stem cells, from which all cures have come, and they do not become adults. We can reverse-engineer skin cells and they have no chance of becoming adults. But embryos can, and if taken care of, will become adults.

ReconToaster wrote:Your statement about Embryotic Stem Cell Research never being responsible for a medical success is somewhat irrelevant, seeing as it is illegal in 22 states, and does not recieve any federal funding.
Under Bush, funding was given to stem cells that were already harvested. They got all the money they needed, and still couldn't produce results. Plus there are 28 other states and the rest of the world. There's been enough work done on it to prove that they are less useful than adult stem cells (as most of them ended up being grown into adult stem cells).

ReconToaster wrote:I am open to other methods, if only to shut up those preaching about 'immorality,' but I certainly don't think the practice is wrong, by any stretch of the word.
Judge how you wish, so long as you have backing behind your judgment.

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:26 pm

CivBase wrote:Haven't had this discussion in a while.
For a good reason.

ReconToaster wrote: An embryo that is cloned from another... for the sheer purpose of science... as nearly all are... never had the potential to be born. They were created solely for the purpose of being harveste for their stem cells. Were it not for that purpose, they never would have been created in the first place.
But there are still lines derived from aborted babies, which could be discontinued and replaced with the lines derived from skin cells.

ReconToaster wrote:I realize that there are other methods, but you can't deny the obvious benefits of having an endless supply of Stem Cells through the use of embryotic duplication.
And all we want is for some of those lines to be replaced by stem cells retrieved from less controversial methods.
Think about it: If we do that, this whole debate is over.

ReconToaster wrote:I am open to other methods, if only to shut up those preaching about 'immorality,' but I certainly don't think the practice is wrong, by any stretch of the word.
I would like some of those people to be shut up too. Namely that quack doctor on Oprah who claims women can stay young forever by taking hormone supplements, and those nutjobs who proclaim that scientific immortality is nigh.

Some people need to be hauled out of the clouds and grounded to reality.
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Post by Toaster on Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:33 pm

Civ wrote:In this case, you're suggesting that because nobody cares about the embryo becoming an adult, it has little to no potential, which is true. But in that case, we are still murdering it, as we are still the ones stopping it from becoming an adult.

Call it what you like, but it still never had the chance of living in the first place. No potential.

Now, if scientists were going out and snatching embryo's from pregnant women... that would be a different story.

Civ wrote:We can clone adult stem cells, from which all cures have come, and they do not become adults. We can reverse-engineer skin cells and they have no chance of becoming adults.

That's great. We should keep up the effort on making that an easier process, and making it more widespread. I'm not arguing that Embryonic Stem Cell Research is the best option, but instead, that it is not 'immoral.'

Rasq wrote:For a good reason.

*holds up left hand and places right hand on something written by Richard Dawkins

"I hereby solemnly swear not to turn this into a religious argument."

Rasq wrote:But there are still lines derived from aborted babies, which could be discontinued and replaced with the lines derived from skin cells.

Are you referring to abortions had in the 'Name of Science,' or fetuses that are aborted for unrelated reasons, and donated to medicine? If it is the latter of the two, then I can't say there's anything wrong with that. If it's already been aborted, you might as well make use of the remains.

Rasq wrote:And all we want is for some of those lines to be replaced by stem cells retrieved from less controversial methods.
Think about it: If we do that, this whole debate is over.

Agreed Very Happy

Rasq wrote:I would like some of those people to be shut up too. Namely that quack doctor on Oprah who claims women can stay young forever by taking hormone supplements, and those nutjobs who proclaim that scientific immortality is nigh.

Yeah, I read some article in 'The Rolling Stone' about some scientist who claims that we are closing in on the age of 'Singularity,' wherein humans will be made one with machines, and the dead can be brought back to life.

I *facepalmed.
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Post by PiEdude on Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:53 pm

I'm not gonna stick around for another Holy War between the Atheists and everyone else.

Bye.
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Post by KristallNacht on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:12 pm

If the babies already being aborted, I don't care if science uses it.

But most stem cell research isn't being done with embryo's anyway.
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Post by Gauz on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:57 pm

If we aren't using embryo's.... this is pointless, although, so are all our other 'debates'

I believe in stem cell research at any cost, potential is potential, but thats only potential. Potential is not tangible, and you can use that research and knowledge to save something that is real. A living human...
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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:53 pm

My sister is actually into this field, especially since the ban was repealed in my state.
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Post by CivBase on Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:59 pm

x Gauz x wrote:I believe in stem cell research at any cost, potential is potential, but thats only potential. Potential is not tangible, and you can use that research and knowledge to save something that is real. A living human...
You have potential to become an adult... but you're not... so ima kill you. Oh, wait, you're talking about being a human, not an adult... in that case, where do you draw the line?

It's true, embryos that were already aborted should be able to be used for embryonic stem cell research... but abortion is wrong IMO, for reasons I have already stated.

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Post by Gauz on Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:15 pm

But I already am a born human, I do believe I am worth more than a fetus..

While it is the destruction of a life, why does it matter? It is the parents option, and the parents do not want to go through birth. Forcing someone to give birth is not someting I would have done.

A lot of things can go wrong with birth..
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Post by KristallNacht on Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:19 am

a lot of things can go wrong with people to.

Also, you can't really abort fetuses. Since the embryo only becomes a fetus just barely before the last time you can legally abort it. And its even long after that that the fetus develops any form of conscious.
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Post by Cheese on Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:34 am

KristallNacht wrote:a lot of things can go wrong with people to.

My sentiments exactly... God this is like the second time I've agreed with you. Something aint right...

But I'd say for this then adoption is the better action - people always need adopted kids (or so sitcoms have lead me to believe). Whereas the birth thing is harder to dismiss.

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Post by Toaster on Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:38 am

CivBase wrote:
x Gauz x wrote:I believe in stem cell research at any cost, potential is potential, but thats only potential. Potential is not tangible, and you can use that research and knowledge to save something that is real. A living human...
You have potential to become an adult... but you're not... so ima kill you. Oh, wait, you're talking about being a human, not an adult... in that case, where do you draw the line?

It's true, embryos that were already aborted should be able to be used for embryonic stem cell research... but abortion is wrong IMO, for reasons I have already stated.

You are arguing that something that has the potential to become something else should be treated as that something else. While I disagree with that notion, I also (as I've stated) disagree that embryos used for this had any potential in the first place.

THEY WERE CLONED SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF BEING HARVESTED. WERE IT NOT FOR THAT CAUSE, THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN CLONED IN THE FIRST PLACE. The argument you are giving is almost spiritual, which I don't want to get in to, but these things are created in a lab environment. The conception is staged by scientists, and then very soon after, harvested. The merging of sperm and egg does not automatically make something suddenly devine and untouchable. Such an argument is silly.

"You was just workin' with them sperm, but now one got into that there egg over there, so you best not touch it cause that'd be gosh darn immoral."
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:33 pm

ReconToaster wrote: The merging of sperm and egg does not automatically make something suddenly devine and untouchable. Such an argument is silly.
Since it is genetically distinct from the mother, I think the argument of "My body, my choice" is null. It hasn't been used yet, but I'd like to preempt it.

Also, as we said, it will have the potential to become a human being. It's as tangible as a 50 ton boulder rolling down a mountainside.

ReconToaster wrote: "You was just workin' with them sperm, but now one got into that there egg over there, so you best not touch it cause that'd be gosh darn immoral."
So... what was the egg and the sperm doing in the same petri dish again?
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Post by CivBase on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:01 pm

x Gauz x wrote:But I already am a born human, I do believe I am worth more than a fetus..
You probably think you're life is worth more than mine as well, but I'd beg to differ.

x Gauz x wrote:While it is the destruction of a life, why does it matter?
This sentence is the essence of fail.

x Gauz x wrote:It is the parents option, and the parents do not want to go through birth.
Let's see... it was also their option when they had sex.

Of course, someone's going to bring up the subject of rape (whose victims never seem to abort anyways...). If it's going to kill the mother, I'm okay with it... but otherwise, it's wrong.

x Gauz x wrote:Forcing someone to give birth is not someting I would have done.
So, you're given the option to make one stranger give birth, or kill the other. Frankly, child birth sounds a little nicer than death.

x Gauz x wrote:A lot of things can go wrong with birth..
And?

ReconToaster wrote:You are arguing that something that has the potential to become something else should be treated as that something else. While I disagree with that notion, I also (as I've stated) disagree that embryos used for this had any potential in the first place.
So, killing children and teens is okay? They're not adults either. What I'm saying is that it's a stage of being a human, one that is only set aside because of the naming system we developed. We're killing because of names.

ReconToaster wrote:THEY WERE CLONED SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF BEING HARVESTED. WERE IT NOT FOR THAT CAUSE, THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN CLONED IN THE FIRST PLACE. The argument you are giving is almost spiritual, which I don't want to get in to, but these things are created in a lab environment. The conception is staged by scientists, and then very soon after, harvested. The merging of sperm and egg does not automatically make something suddenly devine and untouchable. Such an argument is silly.
This is no different than just having sex for science. Just because the process was different doesn't mean the result is.

ReconToaster wrote:"You was just workin' with them sperm, but now one got into that there egg over there, so you best not touch it cause that'd be gosh darn immoral."
You're misunderstanding of the concept of immortality amuses me.

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Post by Toaster on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:36 pm

Rasq wrote:Since it is genetically distinct from the mother, I think the argument of "My body, my choice" is null. It hasn't been used yet, but I'd like to preempt it.

That's fine, but I'm not gonna get into abortion.

Rasq wrote:Also, as we said, it will have the potential to become a human being. It's as tangible as a 50 ton boulder rolling down a mountainside.

Something cloned for the purpose of being harvested never had the potential in the first place.

Rasq wrote:So... what was the egg and the sperm doing in the same petri dish again?

Getting ready to be merged for the specific purpose of being used for Stem Cell Research.

Civ wrote:So, killing children and teens is okay? They're not adults either. What I'm saying is that it's a stage of being a human, one that is only set aside because of the naming system we developed. We're killing because of names.

ummm.. no. Children and teenagers don't JUST have the potential to develop consciousness and emotions. THEY ALREADY HAVE THEM. That's the difference here. Embryo's have absolutely no senses/emotions, and do not contribute to the emotions of others.

Civ wrote:This is no different than just having sex for science. Just because the process was different doesn't mean the result is.

I didn't say it was. If an embryo was conceived for the purpose of being harvested, it never even had any potential to begin with. I didn't get much into that because harvesting stem cells in that fashion is rather unconventional.

Civ wrote:You're misunderstanding of the concept of immortality amuses me.

Immorality? Explain.
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Post by CivBase on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:57 pm

ReconToaster wrote:Something cloned for the purpose of being harvested never had the potential in the first place.
Only if we deny it that potential by harvesting it. You may as well say that an embryo in a womb has no potential because the parent wants to abort it.

ReconToaster wrote:ummm.. no. Children and teenagers don't JUST have the potential to develop consciousness and emotions. THEY ALREADY HAVE THEM. That's the difference here. Embryo's have absolutely no senses/emotions, and do not contribute to the emotions of others.
And this makes them unhuman? Explain.

ReconToaster wrote:I didn't say it was. If an embryo was conceived for the purpose of being harvested, it never even had any potential to begin with. I didn't get much into that because harvesting stem cells in that fashion is rather unconventional.
So? It's the same thing.

ReconToaster wrote:Immorality? Explain.
Epic misread on my part.

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Post by kslidz on Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:19 pm

their are stem cells with in the human body that are just as manipulatable as embryonic ones

so why use them

and no RT
just cause it has no chance of life doesnt mean its not murder

if their are a million men frozen agaisnt their will (which is terrible in the first place) but it would take a lot of work and money to unfreeze them and therefore really has no chance of being unfrozen does that mean you can crunch them up
no its still murder

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Post by Gauz on Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:22 am

Is this whole argument a giant debate on the morality of killing a embryo for science?

I really could care less for the embryo, honestly. I would not force someone to have a child, as that could lead to consequences for the parent. And because I know civ will say its not fair for the embryo, the embryo doesn't give so much of a shit either civ.
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Post by Toaster on Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:22 am

Civbase wrote:Only if we deny it that potential by harvesting it. You may as well say that an embryo in a womb has no potential because the parent wants to abort it.

My point is that the process of harvesting the embryo was the plan from the beginning. It never would have been created in the first place otherwise. You consistently ignore this.

Civ wrote:And this makes them unhuman? Explain.

Children already have emotions and consciousness towards themselves and their surroundings, and are usually loved and 'relied upon' by others. My point was that your argument that "kids only have the potential to become an adult so we should kill them" was completely irrelevant, as I said nothing about adults possessing any stronger of those traits than children.

My point was that with children, it has nothing to do with potential. They ALREADY have those things.

I swear, it's as if you purge your brain of everything you last posted.

Civ wrote:So? It's the same thing.

Did you even read my post? You suggested that whether or not the embryo is created in a lab or in the womb is not a factor, and I said that while I agree that they are both equally moral, I hadn't bothered bringing it up, as it's something that rarely happens.

I know it's the same thing. I'm agreeing with you. Read what I write.

kslidz wrote:and no RT
just cause it has no chance of life doesnt mean its not murder

You've a strange definition of 'murder.'

Kslidz wrote:if their are a million men frozen agaisnt their will (which is terrible in the first place) but it would take a lot of work and money to unfreeze them and therefore really has no chance of being unfrozen does that mean you can crunch them up
no its still murder

Well that all depends on how they were frozen now doesn't it? If it was a natural process, like they got stuck in the middle of the atlantic ocean, then I'd say it would be okay to crunch them up, as it should not be anyone's responsibility to keep those blocks of Ice frozen when it the freezing itself was the fault of the frozen men, or the fault of nature.

If they were captured by the government and frozen, then maybe the cubes should be kept frozen in hope that new thawing methods might be thought up in the future.

Either way, the difference is that a living breathing human has many traits that a normal embryo only has the potential to become, and that a cloned laboratory embryo never had ANY potential to become, so it's very different you see.

Gauz wrote:I really could care less for the embryo, honestly. I would not force someone to have a child, as that could lead to consequences for the parent. And because I know civ will say its not fair for the embryo, the embryo doesn't give so much of a shit either civ.

Which I presume is where the argument becomes spiritual? Without starting an argument on that front, I'll state in a rather matter-of-fact manner, that while some believe that the embryo can, after being harvested, feel sorrow for the life it was not given (which I don't really understand, being that it would be in heaven, which is supposedly WAY better than life on Earth,) I believe that once destroyed, the embryo never will EVER know of its existence... as it was just an embryo... and it is dead.

From my perspective... you can't feel that you've missed out on something when you cannot feel anything at all. The embryo in a lab environment begins and ends its life as a cluster of cells. Nothing more.

Kslidz wrote:their are stem cells with in the human body that are just as manipulatable as embryonic ones

so why use them

And that's great, but that's not what we're discussing.
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Post by CivBase on Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:30 am

x Gauz x wrote:Is this whole argument a giant debate on the morality of killing a embryo for science?
Did you bother reading the title?

x Gauz x wrote:I really could care less for the embryo, honestly.
That's because you don't think about things.

x Gauz x wrote:I would not force someone to have a child, as that could lead to consequences for the parent.
That's the parent's fault, then.

x Gauz x wrote:And because I know civ will say its not fair for the embryo, the embryo doesn't give so much of a shit either civ.
That's because the embryo's not conscious, idiot. An unconscious man wouldn't give a shit either, but is it okay to kill him?

ReconToaster wrote:My point is that the process of harvesting the embryo was the plan from the beginning. It never would have been created in the first place otherwise. You consistently ignore this.
No, I don't. If a teen couple has sex and the condom breaks, the girl got pregnant not to have a child, but to have fun. When she finds out she's pregnant, she chooses to have an abortion, thus the child has no chance. It was created not to create life, but to have fun. It still has potential, but humans are denying it that potential. My story is no different, as it was still not created to be born.

I'll finish up later.

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Post by Gauz on Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:42 am

CivBase wrote:
That's because the embryo's not conscious, idiot.

Exactly


Now Civbase, you have to understand some people have no other option. Having that child could potentially ruin their already created lives. Im making it sound like the embryo is a sacrafice, and it sort of is. It is their problem, but if they go through with the birth, that kid will probably have a shitty life in a orphanage anyways.
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Post by kslidz on Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:50 pm

well maybe the women should learn to keep their legs closed\

you ass hole just cause some women want pleasure doesnt give them the right to kill a baby

its not like we are talking about rape victims we are talking about women who have consensual sex

with that consent comes the responsibility of taking care of a potential child

if you care more about having an orgasm than the well being of a human life you should have to be stuck with the consequences

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Post by Toaster on Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:34 pm

CIV wrote:No, I don't. If a teen couple has sex and the condom breaks, the girl got pregnant not to have a child, but to have fun. When she finds out she's pregnant, she chooses to have an abortion, thus the child has no chance. It was created not to create life, but to have fun. It still has potential, but humans are denying it that potential. My story is no different, as it was still not created to be born.

OH MY GOD. I'm not talking about a couple that has sex and then LATER decides to donate the embryo to science. I am talking about two people who have sex for the sheer purpose of producing an embryo for science. That was the whole point of its conception. Were it not for that cause, it never would have been created in the first place. It NEVER had potential, as that was the plan all along.

Ofcourse, this rarely happens. People rarely have sex to produce an embryo for 'medical science.' That's why I've mainly been focusing on the laboratory environment, wherein ebryos are CLONED. Cloned specifically for the purpose of being harvested soon after. No potential of life included.

In the situation you gave, that couple may not have intended to conceive of a child, but the sex that they had was natural and had its consequences. While they may not have intended to have a child, that's what ended up happening, and thus the embryo had the potential to be born. Unless they were previously legally bound to the intention of destroying whatever embryo they accidentally conceived, then no, it's not the same as planned embryonic harvesting.

This is not an argument about abortion, so can we please stop bringing it up? The vast majority of stem cells were cloned in a laboratory setting for the sole purpose of being used for research and medical procedures.

We're not talking about two people that have sex, freak out, get an abortion, and donate it to science.
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