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Post by Ukurse on Sun May 31, 2009 11:49 pm

KrAzY wrote:NT = NinjaTheory

which is his real username
What about Not Tartarus, and Naughty Taco.

lol
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Post by Cheese on Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:56 am

JB wrote:DESPITE WHAT ANY1 SAYS THE PERSON IS STILL GOING TO DO IT

I stopped. I used to pirate a little. Then someone told me how annoying it was. People put years into this, to just take it is wrong. If time is money then you're stealing something that has a lot of time in it. Plus, even disregarding the money, 90% of publishers of music, films, games whatever, just dont want you to have it on the principle.

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Post by KristallNacht on Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:56 am

ReconToaster wrote:You didn't pirate the music because you don't think the big publishers deserve the money. You pirated it because YOU DIDN'T FEEL LIKE PAYING FOR IT.

Who do you think you are that you can tell me why I do things?

Recon, how long have you known me? i'm quite sure it's long enough that you know I'd say the real reason I do what I do, because I don't give a fuck what you people think anyway.
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Post by KristallNacht on Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:57 am

ReconToaster wrote:
Except... my argument wasn't that you should rip the music off of youtube instead. My argument was that maybe you should have looked up the album on youtube, listened to it, and then bought it off of Amazon or something.

Which requires a rediculous amount of work for minimal reward.

TNine wrote:you weren't going to buy the cake anyway, but you are rewarded for laziness, and you probably WOULD have boughten the cake anyway, but you can always tell yourself no.

eh, the cake is nonessential, and a lie. Why would I pay for it?

KrAzY wrote:you are listening to something that an artist put their time and effort into, they are getting no compensation for their work.

This is a funny statement considering how many musical artists support filesharing.

They're getting compensated in concert sales. So yes, they are being compensated.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Democracy does not apply to morality. Never has, never will.

That's because morality is a PERSONAL thing.


Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Wrong.
Unless you're getting ripped off to the max (Only happens to complete idiots these days) you are getting paid a percentage. If you're good, you get paid cash upfront too.

False. The record industry is pretty bad when it comes to compensating the artists. Generally its a signing bonus and then a percent AFTER so many are sold. And even then its never over 5%.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
JB wrote:because when I did do it I didn't think it was morally illegal,
Care to back that up?

What could he use to back up his personal opinion that wasn't just used in STATING HIS PERSONAL OPINION?

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
It's legally wrong, and it's stealing. Unless you're about to say that stealing isn't morally wrong, you're going to have a pretty short argument.

False. The only illegality around filesharing is the act of providing files for others to take, hence the term, UNLAWFUL DISTRIBUTION. The act of acquiring said files is completely legal. As is why those accused of pirating in the past (that weren't distributors) were always targets of lawsuits and not actual crime-based court.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
So, do you have respect for OJ Simpson, now that he came out and admitted he killed his wife and her friend?

I have respect for the fact that he was able to get away with it even when he was the suspect. I can only come up with ways to keep from becoming a suspect, but not get away once they're onto me.
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Post by JB on Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:31 am

JB wrote:
Back to the conversion program, you take any video you want off of youtube or any other site that offers audio, convert it into the music program of your choice, and put it on your ipod or MP3 player. There is virtually no difference between downloading it and converting it. The only real difference between the two I can think of is that one is declared legal, and the other is not, but people do it in about equal ammounts every day.

It's not a matter of whether or not it's legal. P2P file sharing is pretty much legal no matter what. It's a question of what is right, and what is wrong, which is a VERY different argument. Law is just a game.[/quote]

It's quite funny how you would say that its not a matter of how its legal or not when quite clearly you, everyone else, and myself have many times brought up the fact that it is potentially illegal, and NT (happy now?) has clearly explained something that is actually quite commonly known. You have your oppinion, and I have my own, and I respect that, but sitting there trying to change my mind on morales? Your not going to get very far in an argument when people already have their mind set.
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Post by JB on Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:33 am

JB wrote:
JB wrote:
Back to the conversion program, you take any video you want off of youtube or any other site that offers audio, convert it into the music program of your choice, and put it on your ipod or MP3 player. There is virtually no difference between downloading it and converting it. The only real difference between the two I can think of is that one is declared legal, and the other is not, but people do it in about equal ammounts every day.

Recon Toaster wrote: It's not a matter of whether or not it's legal. P2P file sharing is pretty much legal no matter what. It's a question of what is right, and what is wrong, which is a VERY different argument. Law is just a game.


It's quite funny how you would say that its not a matter of how its legal or not when quite clearly you, everyone else, and myself have many times brought up the fact that it is potentially illegal, and NT (happy now?) has clearly explained something that is actually quite commonly known. You have your oppinion, and I have my own, and I respect that, but sitting there trying to change my mind on morales? Your not going to get very far in an argument when people already have their mind set.
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Post by JB on Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:34 am

sorry for the double post, mistake on my part >.>
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Post by Toaster on Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:55 am

NT wrote:What could he use to back up his personal opinion that wasn't just used in STATING HIS PERSONAL OPINION?

umm... Reasons as to why he thinks that way? Most opinions can be supported by facts.

NT wrote:False. The record industry is pretty bad when it comes to compensating the artists. Generally its a signing bonus and then a percent AFTER so many are sold. And even then its never over 5%.

And therefore, by not purchasing their album/music, you are not contributing to that amount, and are keeping them from getting that 5%.

I still don't understand why it is that you don't think big music publishers deserve the money that THEY recieve from sales. Ask (rasq?) said, those publishers poor A LOT of money into production, marketing, and distribution. They take risks when they sign in new artists. Why don't they deserve compensation?

NT wrote:That's because morality is a PERSONAL thing.

Which is determined based off of knowledge and experience.

You don't determine moral standpoints based on whether or not a topic makes you feel 'icky.'

I saw absolutely nothing wrong with animal testing, but after I watched some videos (on PETA sites, ofcourse) showing experimental monkeys being thrown around, shoved into small tubes, and having cords shoved up their noses, I'll admit that I'm not perfectly ok with it all anymore.

NT wrote:Which requires a rediculous amount of work for minimal reward.

What? It takes a hell of a lot more work to log into Zune Marketplace / Itunes and click 'buy' on a song? I don't see where you're coming from.

NT wrote:Who do you think you are that you can tell me why I do things?

Recon, how long have you known me? i'm quite sure it's long enough that you know I'd say the real reason I do what I do, because I don't give a fuck what you people think anyway.

Weird, I thought I was addressing a sub-culture just then... not you.
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Post by TNine on Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:22 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Quite wrong. The artist is LOSING MONEY.
Normally, you wouldn't listen to his music, and he wouldn't get your money.
You are now listening to his music, but he isn't getting your money. That is a loss.

False. Potential gain and real gain are the same and both == null in this situation. Thus the artist ends this situation with +-0.
He could have gotten 5 cents for the song, but instead he got none. (Doesn't seem like much, but it adds up quickly, 20,000 people pirat you lose 1,000 bucks).

KristallNacht wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
No, you said it as in "But I wouldn't have as much music to listen to." I said it as in "You wouldn't have as much music to listen to. So what?"

Exactly, its not a big deal.
Then why pirate? There is no reason for you to steal, and there are so many reasons against it.

KristallNacht wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Normally, you wouldn't buy that cake from the baker. But then you steal it. Try explaining the no-loss situation to him.

That's a false and inaccurate metaphor. This is more likened to going into the baker and walking away with a cake made out of air, or seeing a cake and using a magic mater replicator to replicate his cake. The baker still has all his resources.
No, cause at the end of the day, he has a lot less money than he should. He lost money, and that's a resource last time i checked.

KristallNacht wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
No.
You guys drive up the cost of doing business, and the companies have to implement IPPS and DRM. And they lose money.

False. Bad corporate management and minimum wage drive up the cost of doing business.
And pirating. There CAN be multiple reasons for a single problem, you know.

KristallNacht wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Wait... It's interesting, and yet not interesting enough to buy. It's not a need, barely even a want, and yet it's worth the trouble of downloading?

You'd be surprised how easy it is to download things. It's really as easy as hitting 'new tab' hitting the google chrome demonoid shortcut, typing the item name and clicking the download button.
It's wasting memory and time. Why pirate it? There is no reason that means you should steal, but isn't good enough to buy the song for a measley buck. I lose more than a buck when i lend people money.

KristallNacht wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:It is that mentality which is the foundation of our current financial crises.

actually the financial crisis is caused by people being irresponsible with their credit.
There are much similarities to this. Generally, arrogance that what the person was doing was wrong is the basis of this crisis.
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
JB wrote:Even so, even if KN decided that downloading songs for free was a "terrible terrible thing" almost the rest of the American populace, and many other people do it day to day.
That still doesn't make it right.
Democracy does not apply to morality. Never has, never will.
As a matter of fact, since when has America been a DEMOCRACY? That is one of the filthiest governments imaginable.
WRONG
Morality is 100% based off democracy. It is based off what most people believe to be wrong or right. As of now, almost everybody believe things like killing and stealing are morally wrong, as well as purposely doing harm unto another, and thus they are immoral.

If they aren't based off society at larges individual morals, what are they based off of?
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:52 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Democracy does not apply to morality. Never has, never will.

That's because morality is a PERSONAL thing.

TNine wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
JB wrote:Even so, even if KN decided that downloading songs for free was a "terrible terrible thing" almost the rest of the American populace, and many other people do it day to day.
That still doesn't make it right.
Democracy does not apply to morality. Never has, never will.
As a matter of fact, since when has America been a DEMOCRACY? That is one of the filthiest governments imaginable.
WRONG
Morality is 100% based off democracy. It is based off what most people believe to be wrong or right. As of now, almost everybody believe things like killing and stealing are morally wrong, as well as purposely doing harm unto another, and thus they are immoral.

If they aren't based off society at larges individual morals, what are they based off of?
So... wrong.

Let's start with the 'Personal' thing. Individually, a person can explain away his actions. His morality may have no bearing whatsoever upon what morality really is, even if you do define morality via democracy.

Which is why SupCou Justices should be deciding cases and interpreting the law according to prior law, not according to 'personal experience.'
When it comes to Obama's recent SupCou nominee, just say no.

Now with the democracy thing. Lock three people with conflicting or identical personalities in the same room and leave them for a while. Two will always gang up on one in a decision-making or executive process. Of course, alliances will shift and everything, but majority rule will deviate from morality.

Let's use the sociopath rule. A sociopath has no real bearing on what morality is, and often has to think his actions through if he wishes to keep in line with society. Ergo, the way some define it is "The least harm for the greatest number of people."
Witch-hunting and gay-bashing may be socially acceptable, but it comes at the price of life for people who have not been tried in front of a court.
Taking a wallet off a bench in an empty locker room may be acceptable amongst one's peers, since few people are willing to return money, but this involves loss of income and identity papers for the owner.
Killing an abortionist may save unborn lives, but at the cost of taking another without really solving the problem. Besides, what kind of sick jerk kills an abortionist in a church?
Prostitution may be touted as a 'victimless crime', but at the expense of potential spread of deadly STDs, and the encouraging of a woman to continue a no-future job.

Understand? I didn't do a good job of explaining it.
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Post by KristallNacht on Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:46 pm

ReconToaster wrote: umm... Reasons as to why he thinks that way? Most opinions can be supported by facts.

Well his FACT is that it wasn't morally wrong in HIS MIND at the time.


ReconToaster wrote:I still don't understand why it is that you don't think big music publishers deserve the money that THEY recieve from sales. Ask (rasq?) said, those publishers poor A LOT of money into production, marketing, and distribution. They take risks when they sign in new artists. Why don't they deserve compensation?

And I quote, from a popular author who's entire welfare resides on royalties, the record industry is nothing but "rapacious profiteers who have been parasitically sucking the blood out of copyrights on other peoples’ work" - Orson Scott Card



ReconToaster wrote:Which is determined based off of knowledge and experience.

You don't determine moral standpoints based on whether or not a topic makes you feel 'icky.'

I saw absolutely nothing wrong with animal testing, but after I watched some videos (on PETA sites, ofcourse) showing experimental monkeys being thrown around, shoved into small tubes, and having cords shoved up their noses, I'll admit that I'm not perfectly ok with it all anymore.

what? You are aware PETA uses mostly video shot before animal protection rights existed period, and normally not even done in America.

Either way, I'm not sure what you're point is. You seem to be countering the fact that morality isn't a personal experiencem but then again you aren't....

ReconToaster wrote:
What? It takes a hell of a lot more work to log into Zune Marketplace / Itunes and click 'buy' on a song? I don't see where you're coming from.

Yes, that does take a lot longer. And that process is much more hit and miss.




TNine wrote:
He could have gotten 5 cents for the song, but instead he got none. (Doesn't seem like much, but it adds up quickly, 20,000 people pirat you lose 1,000 bucks).

False. As the potential max gain in this scenario is +-0 as I am unwilling to pay for such content, as I do not believe it to be of the stated value. Thus the reality of the situation still being +-0 means the artist actually did acquire his max potential gain for this transaction.

TNine wrote:Then why pirate? There is no reason for you to steal, and there are so many reasons against it.

Like?

TNine wrote:No, cause at the end of the day, he has a lot less money than he should. He lost money, and that's a resource last time i checked.

He didn't lose anything. Where is the loss in this situation for him? (keep in mind that even cake is more of a 'loss' than music, much much more and legitimate resources are still being used, though there is still no real loss outside of what he can control)

TNine wrote:And pirating. There CAN be multiple reasons for a single problem, you know.

Except as piracy has grown, concert sales have gone up ridiculous percentages. So, you're saying reprioritizing money in such a way that in the end, the companies still mostly end with the same amount (plus more going to the artist) as something that drives up the cost of business?

That's like saying that not buying cars destroys the auto industry, despite people spending all that money on parts for their existing cars instead.

TNine wrote:It's wasting memory and time. Why pirate it? There is no reason that means you should steal, but isn't good enough to buy the song for a measley buck. I lose more than a buck when i lend people money.

Depends on what you deem a waste. That is what I'm willing to spend, which is my resources, on this item.





Rasq, your rant about laws and morality made no sense. You basically define the laws as being ultimate morality.....which means that piracy is morally sound.....
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:17 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:I still don't understand why it is that you don't think big music publishers deserve the money that THEY recieve from sales. Ask (rasq?) said, those publishers poor A LOT of money into production, marketing, and distribution. They take risks when they sign in new artists. Why don't they deserve compensation?

And I quote, from a popular author who's entire welfare resides on royalties, the record industry is nothing but "rapacious profiteers who have been parasitically sucking the blood out of copyrights on other peoples’ work" - Orson Scott Card
I'm sorry, but as much respect as I have for Mr. Card (I do love Ender's Game) he has about as much authority in this arena as a dental hygienist has in the area of failure analysis of the twin towers.

KristallNacht wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:
What? It takes a hell of a lot more work to log into Zune Marketplace / Itunes and click 'buy' on a song? I don't see where you're coming from.

Yes, that does take a lot longer. And that process is much more hit and miss.
Well, fewer viruses make up for it. It doesn't take that much longer.
And it's hardly hit and miss, as you can listen to some of the music firsthand.

But hey, you admit to downloading music you barely even want. What's it to you if you happen to get a song that isn't quite as good as you thought it was.

KristallNacht wrote:
TNine wrote:
He could have gotten 5 cents for the song, but instead he got none. (Doesn't seem like much, but it adds up quickly, 20,000 people pirat you lose 1,000 bucks).

False. As the potential max gain in this scenario is +-0 as I am unwilling to pay for such content, as I do not believe it to be of the stated value. Thus the reality of the situation still being +-0 means the artist actually did acquire his max potential gain for this transaction.
Except his intellectual property is now in the hands of people who refused to pay for it. That is a loss.

You earlier made the point that downloading is like making a carbon copy of the cake and taking it home. However, since the artist owns the intellectual property contained on the CD, any copy is still owned by him. It's really no different than a patent.

As for illegal downloads being illegal, they still are illegal under law. Prosecution of you guys, however, is like going after cockroaches with a mallet. Time consuming, expensive, just so much easier to burn the nests.

KristallNacht wrote:
TNine wrote:And pirating. There CAN be multiple reasons for a single problem, you know.

Except as piracy has grown, concert sales have gone up ridiculous percentages. So, you're saying reprioritizing money in such a way that in the end, the companies still mostly end with the same amount (plus more going to the artist) as something that drives up the cost of business?

That's like saying that not buying cars destroys the auto industry, despite people spending all that money on parts for their existing cars instead.
Actually, you're quite right.
Buying the parts for existing cars does not keep the car companies in business, or at least it doesn't make them even half of the money they earn by selling cars.

As someone who has fixed his Mercedes on several occasions and has replaced the transmission on a Jeep Wagoneer, the money doesn't go to GM, Ford, or Chrysler. It goes to third-party suppliers/warehousers, or the owners of similar cars that have been parted out.

KristallNacht wrote:Rasq, your rant about laws and morality made no sense. You basically define the laws as being ultimate morality.....which means that piracy is morally sound.....
You didn't even bother reading it. I wasn't completely clear, but I never mentioned the Law as the absolute morality. I don't believe I even used the term "Law".

I said that morality is the greatest good for the greatest number of people, and is best defined by pre-set laws than subject to the whims of a person or a mob.

Morality as defined by the individual results in people like you. People who explain away their own failures and transgressions.

Morality as defined by democracy results in lynching, McCarthyism, witch hunts, decay of society. The best, clearest illustration of this was "Lord of the Flies", although Sphere touched upon it in a few paragraphs.
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Post by KristallNacht on Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:43 am

TL;DR

so...response to what i did read.

And you have more authority than someone that has to deal with copyright and IP laws to make a living?

and also, artists don't own their own IP. What world do you live in where the Record industry is that allowing?

and once again, downloading isn't illegal. Its distribution thats illegal.
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Post by JB on Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:53 am

downloading is perfectly legal, but when you leave it in your sharing folders, or put files in your sharing folders without permission, thats illegal

Don't you think that if downloading it were illegal they would just shut down the downloaders? I mean it wouldn't be that hard.
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Post by KristallNacht on Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:51 pm

p90x
Prototype
ArmA2
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Post by Gauz on Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:20 pm

I do believe you should retain the original purpose of this thread, and move the argument to the discussion thread. Your all spamming this thread, I would suggest you stop.
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Post by Carcarius on Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:48 pm

Kristall you are a petty thief. You are a criminal. Stop trying to justify your cause by acknowledging that there is profit in the system. Your only doing this because A: you want said content because well it's human nature to want things, and B: there are no consequences for your actions. Your lucky that the government isn't going after cyber criminals. You make me sick, its like watching a serial killer ride around in public with all of his victims in his car.
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Post by Gauz on Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:09 am

Shut the fuck up..

I also pirate, and I guess I am a theif, so is half of fucking america. Understood?

NT is right, pirating is a small crime no doubt. It doesn't matter..

And now comes the lecture.
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Post by KristallNacht on Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:14 am

pirating, in most cases isn't even illegal, carc. just FYI.
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Post by Ukurse on Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:29 am

I just don't believe in the power of one.

If there was a tank, one ant could not stop it. A few million ants could. But would those millions of ants have cared for one more ant of ever 10 more ants?


Last edited by Ukurse on Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Gauz on Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:37 am

I... don't think a ant, or millions of ants could take down a... tank.
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Post by Ukurse on Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:43 am

x Gauz x wrote:I... don't think a ant, or millions of ants could take down a... tank.
I think a few million could pile up and stop the tank. Well, it actually depends on the type of ant and tank.
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Post by Cheese on Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:06 am

Maybe a toy tank.

NT - you should buy prototype - from what I've heard that definitely deserves it. Never heard of the other two. Oh wait I know Arma 2... That also looks awesome... Gah your deserving moral code is weird.

Besides, hack and slashes are waaaay better on console.

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:17 pm

Ukurse wrote:I just don't believe in the power of one.

If there was a tank, one ant could not stop it. A few million ants could. But would those millions of ants have cared for one more ant of ever 10 more ants?
Rasq'uire'laskar
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Pirate Journals - Page 6 Empty Re: Pirate Journals

Post by Cheese on Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:23 pm

What happened afterwards? It kinda looked like he walked off.

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Pirate Journals - Page 6 Empty Re: Pirate Journals

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