Existence of God

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Post by Cheese on Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:10 pm

ReconToaster wrote:It's really more of a debate as to whether or not the assumption that there is a god is a reasonable conclusion to come to. As of yet, I really don't think it is.

I think the most logical conclusion we can come to is that nobody in this thread will change their mind until God Himself logs in on a cloud and says, 'Yes, for the love of me, I'm real! Now piss of and let me go home!'

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Post by Gauz on Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:13 pm

QFT Cheese
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Post by Toaster on Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:19 pm

Cheese wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:It's really more of a debate as to whether or not the assumption that there is a god is a reasonable conclusion to come to. As of yet, I really don't think it is.

I think the most logical conclusion we can come to is that nobody in this thread will change their mind until God Himself logs in on a cloud and says, 'Yes, for the love of me, I'm real! Now piss of and let me go home!'

I think that not discussing a topic simply because people are stubborn...
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Post by CivBase on Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:29 am

ReconToaster wrote:So they're open to competition? Well I'm open to competition with Steam, That doesn't mean I'm not a huge steam fanboy who worships Gabe Newell.
What? Last I checked, Steam wasn't a religion. Are you seriously that low? This comment has nothing to do with the debate.

ReconToaster wrote:so because they have no evidence that directly disproves their ideas, they should jump to conclusions about the creation of life?

No, I didn't say that. This is why it's a religion. Uhg, how many times must I repeat myself in these threads? It is a belief. If you can somehow find powerful evidence that contradicts the belief in God, religious people will probably change. However, because that does not exist, why should we? So what if people have theories, why shouldn't they?

Is it better to just say "I don't know the answer, so screw it" or "Well, maybe it's this"? Your logic undermines the entire foundation of science!

ReconToaster wrote:This is where I disagree. Yes, there is no evidence, and probably never will be, that directly disproves their beliefs. However, they don't have much reason for believing it in the first place.

Yah, we do. If this idea of God has survived as long as the human race with absolutely no contradicting evidence, why wouldn't you believe it? After all, it doesn't hurt anything.

ReconToaster wrote:When I say reasons, I mean reasons that would make that conclusion in their head. I don't mean benefits.

lol, there is no reason. But there's no reason not to either. So why not? If you found a free lottery ticket on the ground, would you pick it up? Of course you would! Is there a reason to believe that this is a winner? No.

ReconToaster wrote:You don't decide what you believe based on weighing pros and cons. You decide based on what seems like the most sound theory, and what has the most logical backing.

Then tell me, what is illogical about the idea of God? There is no other opposing idea as far as the creation of the world goes.

ReconToaster wrote:Otherwise you are lying to yourself, and telling yourself that you believe in something because you hope to reap the benefits of such a faith.

Perhaps. I chose to believe in God of my own free will, not because I have a chance to benefit from heaven, but because I see no logical reason why not to.

ReconToaster wrote:As I've said, I'm not atheist because I don't like the ideas of Christianity. Even if I wanted to, I could not simply believe in it. This is why your whole "you might go to hell" argument is completely irrelevant.

That's your problem. You chose to force yourself into believing that God is illogical, and now your mind will not stop trying to find ways to prove that you are right. What you say means that you are not in the slightest big Agnostic, but that you are, without a doubt, Atheist. You cannot accept the idea of God simply because that would mean overthrowing everything you previously thought about the subject to be true. You accuse religious people of being ignorant and closed to other ideas (even though there are none), but are they really the ignorant ones?

ReconToaster wrote:The idea of hell might cause someone to pretend to believe in God, but that's not true faith. Internally, they still doubt the existence of a god.

Some do, some do not. You assume everyone in the world is as closed to the idea as you are. You are trying to insist that, because of what I said earlier (religious people can be open to other ideas) that religious people still doubt the existence of God. True, when presented with undeniable evidence that God does not exist, most will change, but that does not mean that for the time being they doubt Gods existence (though some might). They have no reason to.

I do love how you only responded to one of my four responses with that post.

Now to respond to Cheese...

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Post by CivBase on Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:40 am

Cheese wrote:Wow! You actually sifted through all that! I'm impressed Razz
If I didn't, that would suggest that I didn't have the logical response to an accusation, meaning I'd be accepting my defeat.

Cheese wrote:Are you calling all Vikings liars?! Odin's Ravens will not be best pleased!!
mhmm...

Cheese wrote:I think sentience, creativity (hell, especially creativity) and self-awareness is what we have dubbed spirit.
No, the Holy Spirit is our sense of moral values. You know, the little angel on our left shoulder or the little talking cricket.

Cheese wrote:Maslow did a test on mice. He rigged up electrodes to their brain to release these chemicals, and they did - over and over again until they would have died. So yeah, you're right; but I still don't see the problem so long as it's triggered by good things (like accomplishment or friendship, as opposed to button pushing or drug taking).
Even if it's triggered by good things, it's still just the release of chemicals. And these 'good things' are not necessarily good in this case, they are simply things that help maintain the health/life of the colony of cells that we are made of.

Cheese wrote:Atheism is an understanding that all these things can still be amazing without God - maybe even more that it got that way without design.

Perhaps, but I fail to see how that understanding is accomplished.

Cheese wrote:What is joy with the introduction of religion? Doesn't it still stem from the same chemical release, only through a different trigger?
It is still a chemical release on the physical level.

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Post by Toaster on Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:18 pm

Civ wrote:No, I didn't say that. This is why it's a religion.

And you think that changes anything? Because you stamp the name "RELIGION" on it, you can make whatever claims you want without backing?

Civ wrote:Is it better to just say "I don't know the answer, so screw it" or "Well, maybe it's this"? Your logic undermines the entire foundation of science!

No, it's better to say "Hey, I don't know the answer, so lets look for it," not "Hey, I don't know the answer, so lets just assume there's a god"

Civ wrote: Yah, we do. If this idea of God has survived as long as the human race with absolutely no contradicting evidence, why wouldn't you believe it?

Again, the fact alone that it cannot be disproved does not mean that it's a reasonable conclusion to make.

Civ wrote:there's no reason not to either. So why not?

There's no reason not to be a scientologist... so why aren't you?

Civ wrote:Then tell me, what is illogical about the idea of God?

Speaking of having to repeat yourself... I'm not saying it's an illogical theory, but that there is nowhere near enough evidential reason to fully subscribe to it. I think it's a possibility, but I don't herald it as absolute truth.

Civ wrote:That's your problem. You chose to force yourself into believing that God is illogical, and now your mind will not stop trying to find ways to prove that you are right. What you say means that you are not in the slightest big Agnostic, but that you are, without a doubt, Atheist. You cannot accept the idea of God simply because that would mean overthrowing everything you previously thought about the subject to be true. You accuse religious people of being ignorant and closed to other ideas (even though there are none), but are they really the ignorant ones?

Actually, I was saying that I can't just tell myself to doubtlessly believe in something without being provoked by evidence. I'm not saying I can't consider it a possibility. I already do. I would probably go so far as to say that intelligent design is right up there with string theory, as far as feasibility goes, in my mind.

You, on the other hand, have taken the theory of god and dedicated yourself to it. You treat it as an absolute truth. That's what bothers me. I think that the big bang theory is pretty possible, but I don't turn a blind eye to other theories. I'm open to other ideas. I'm don't doubtlessly believe it.

You chose a single system and told yourself "Ima believe in this." I didn't do that. I'm not going to dedicate my life to one belief. I'm open to them all. Until there is extremely hard evidence for a single theory, I don't think it's okay to think of it as absolute truth. Consider it a possibility, and try to find further evidence for that theory if you like, and search for other possibilities, but don't claim that yours is the truth.

Civ wrote:Some do, some do not. You assume everyone in the world is as closed to the idea as you are. You are trying to insist that, because of what I said earlier (religious people can be open to other ideas) that religious people still doubt the existence of God. True, when presented with undeniable evidence that God does not exist, most will change, but that does not mean that for the time being they doubt Gods existence (though some might). They have no reason to.

What? You were saying that the possibility of hell is a good reason for an agnostic person to believe in Christianity. I wasn't saying that religious people doubt the existence of god. I wasn't claiming that everyone in the world is closed to the idea. I realize that around 1/3 of the world is Christian. Trust me. I know.

I was saying that an agnostic person is not just going to believe in something based on a fear of hell. They might think to themselves "Being christian would be the safe way to go," But you can't just tell yourself what to believe.

The mind doesn't work that way. You believe in something because it seems like a reasonable thing to say, in your mind. Not because you tell yourself "believe or there MIGHT be consequences."

If someone told me "be christian or I'll pull your fingernails out" I'd probably say "GOD DAMNIT BELIEVE" but my mind is rational. I cannot just believe something, deep down, out of fear.

You have been told that christianity is the truth since you were a young kid, so it came naturally to you. Deciding what you believe in, as an adult, is much different.
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Post by CivBase on Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:40 am

ReconToaster wrote:And you think that changes anything? Because you stamp the name "RELIGION" on it, you can make whatever claims you want without backing?
Yes. There's a reason religion and science are kept apart.

ReconToaster wrote:No, it's better to say "Hey, I don't know the answer, so lets look for it," not "Hey, I don't know the answer, so lets just assume there's a god"
What about "Hey, I think this is the answer, but I'm going to test my hypothesis. Until then, I'll take my hypothesis to be true but keep it out of my work until it is proven or disproven."

ReconToaster wrote:Again, the fact alone that it cannot be disproved does not mean that it's a reasonable conclusion to make.
Why not? Nothing in this area is can be disproven. Don't you get it? There is no scientifically reasonable explanation for the formation of the universe. And even if you don't think it's reasonable, that doesn't mean it's illogical.

ReconToaster wrote: There's no reason not to be a scientologist... so why aren't you?
Because I prefer to have a professional check to make sure I'm healthy and, if not, administer fast-acting, effective medicine to help fix what's wrong.

I get what you're saying though. The answer is simply because I choose to believe in God. Science cannot solve everything.

ReconToaster wrote:Speaking of having to repeat yourself... I'm not saying it's an illogical theory, but that there is nowhere near enough evidential reason to fully subscribe to it. I think it's a possibility, but I don't herald it as absolute truth.
Then what are we arguing about? You accept God as a logical answer (though not your answer of choice, because you want extreme evidence).

If you don't want to take it as truth, again, that's your problem. Just know that you will never get conclusive evidence in this area.

ReconToaster wrote:Actually, I was saying that I can't just tell myself to doubtlessly believe in something without being provoked by evidence.
You'll never get it.

ReconToaster wrote:I'm not saying I can't consider it a possibility. I already do. I would probably go so far as to say that intelligent design is right up there with string theory, as far as feasibility goes, in my mind.
mhmm...

ReconToaster wrote:You, on the other hand, have taken the theory of god and dedicated yourself to it.
True and false. You make extreme generalizations about religious people.

ReconToaster wrote:You treat it as an absolute truth. That's what bothers me.
Why would that bother you? I'm not asking other people to take it as absolute truth and it has hurt nothing.

ReconToaster wrote:I think that the big bang theory is pretty possible, but I don't turn a blind eye to other theories.
The big bang is a hypothetical situation that could possibly explain the formation of the universe, not the creation of it.

ReconToaster wrote:I'm open to other ideas. I'm don't doubtlessly believe it.
I am too, but I choose to believe this one until conclusive evidence has been shown for another. I can change my belief, but I doubt I will ever have to.

ReconToaster wrote:You chose a single system and told yourself "Ima believe in this." I didn't do that.
That's great. What else is new?

ReconToaster wrote:I'm not going to dedicate my life to one belief. I'm open to them all.
You have fun with that.

ReconToaster wrote:Until there is extremely hard evidence for a single theory, I don't think it's okay to think of it as absolute truth.
I think it is, so long as you don't put it into science.

ReconToaster wrote:Consider it a possibility, and try to find further evidence for that theory if you like, and search for other possibilities, but don't claim that yours is the truth.
I claim it as truth for myself, but I have never claimed it as truth for another.

ReconToaster wrote:What? You were saying that the possibility of hell is a good reason for an agnostic person to believe in Christianity. I wasn't saying that religious people doubt the existence of god. I wasn't claiming that everyone in the world is closed to the idea. I realize that around 1/3 of the world is Christian. Trust me. I know.
Okay.

ReconToaster wrote:I was saying that an agnostic person is not just going to believe in something based on a fear of hell. They might think to themselves "Being christian would be the safe way to go," But you can't just tell yourself what to believe.
You can, people do it all the time... however, it's not recommended. The only way logic will allow people to go is from Christian to Agnostic. It will allow them to stay Christian, but it's easier to turn a Christian into an Atheist than to turn an Atheist into a Christian. As for Agnostics, you'd have to be God himself to change them.

ReconToaster wrote:The mind doesn't work that way.
The mind can work that way, but logic doesn't. This is why, using logic, neither of us will ever turn to the other side.

ReconToaster wrote:You believe in something because it seems like a reasonable thing to say, in your mind. Not because you tell yourself "believe or there MIGHT be consequences."
They asked for a reason, I gave it to them. It works as a reason, but I never claimed it would be strong enough to turn them into Christians.

ReconToaster wrote:If someone told me "be christian or I'll pull your fingernails out" I'd probably say "GOD DAMNIT BELIEVE" but my mind is rational. I cannot just believe something, deep down, out of fear.
You can, if the fear is strong enough. It has happened numerous times before. However, in your mind you treat the idea of hell as a fairy tale and are unafraid of it. And because almost all non-Christians think the same thing of hell, they will not change either.

ReconToaster wrote:You have been told that christianity is the truth since you were a young kid, so it came naturally to you. Deciding what you believe in, as an adult, is much different.
And I have decided to believe in God.

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Post by kslidz on Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:30 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
so because they have no evidence that directly disproves their ideas, they should jump to conclusions about the creation of life?


exactly

and evolution has so much (legitimate) evidence Rolling Eyes

you will say it does but there is no hard proof for it or there would be hard proof against the intelligent design theory

evolution is just a creative imagination that got out of control

i have a proof against evolution
now listen closely cause i might not say it again
NO SPONTANEOUS GENERATION HAS EVER HAPPENED BEFORE... EVER (including the beginning of the world in the primordial ooze that lightning struck)

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Post by TNine on Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:49 pm

Faith: Believing beyond your doubt. Do i doubt god exists. Of course. Do i believe he does exist. Of course.

There is simply so much that can't be explained, and so much amazing coincidence, that trying to tell yourself that this was all random is silly.

Also, science, in reality, can explain NOTHING! Because it cannot explain it's own fundamentals, there is no explanation for the laws of nature, the laws of physics. Why does gravity exist at exactly the force it does? Why does the human mind work? How do miracles happen?!
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Post by Cheese on Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:12 pm

There's no explanation at the moment, but we're making our way through them quicker than we've ever done before. This can only speed up... hell, we're on a couple hundred years from hearing, 'Forty-Two.'

Speaking of Forty two, Douglas Adams (who was atheist btw) described faith as belief in the total absence of evidence.

If we found 100% evidence that God exists tomorrow, then it would be impossible to have faith in God because that's a contradiction of terms. But without faith, God is nothing... and therefore could not exist. MIND ASPLODE!!

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Post by CivBase on Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:26 pm

You make a good point Cheese. So RT will never ever ever be a believer, in that case.

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Post by Toaster on Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:07 pm

kslidz wrote:and evolution has so much (legitimate) evidence

you will say it does but there is no hard proof for it or there would be hard proof against the intelligent design theory

Actually, no. I won't say that there is hard evidence for it. Don't put words into my mouth.

When in this thread, or any other thread for that matter, have I claimed to believe in macro evolution? Don't assume that simply because I don't subscribe to any religion, that I must, by default, believe indefinitely in evolution.

I'll respond to Civ later...
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Post by Cheese on Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:08 am

CivBase wrote:You make a good point Cheese. So RT will never ever ever be a believer, in that case.

You say that like it's a bad thing...

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Post by Toaster on Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:21 am

Cheese wrote:You say that like it's a bad thing...

Reminds me of someone...

Existence of God - Page 4 Barack_obama


Oh yeah...
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Post by CivBase on Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:39 am

So, Recon, you say that all faith is unreasonable? It is illogical to show faith in anything?

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Post by Felix on Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:44 am

faith doens't have logic...

It's believing in something that isn't there, but you feel is there...

but, this isn't about faith, this is about god, and how he hates me and never lets me have a cookie... Sad
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Post by Toaster on Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:47 am

CivBase wrote:So, Recon, you say that all faith is unreasonable? It is illogical to show faith in anything?

If by faith you mean trust, like that I have faith that valve will continue to make good games, no. That's reasonable. It is backed by Valve's history of making great games.

When it comes to the creation of the Universe, and I know you have some sort of witty response lined up for what I'm about to say... Yes. Believing absolutely in any explanation for the creation/formation of the Universe is, as of yet, unreasonable, and probably always will be.
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Post by CivBase on Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:50 am

I actually have no witty response, just curious.

However, I'm sure I'll come up with something by the end of the day.

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Post by kslidz on Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:39 am

ReconToaster wrote:
kslidz wrote:and evolution has so much (legitimate) evidence

you will say it does but there is no hard proof for it or there would be hard proof against the intelligent design theory

Actually, no. I won't say that there is hard evidence for it. Don't put words into my mouth.

When in this thread, or any other thread for that matter, have I claimed to believe in macro evolution? Don't assume that simply because I don't subscribe to any religion, that I must, by default, believe indefinitely in evolution.

I'll respond to Civ later...

i am sorry
i didnt realize
i actually have a friend like that doesnt know what he believes
do you know what you believe or are you just tearing down arguements trying to find an answer
what do you believe

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Post by Toaster on Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:57 am

Kslidz wrote:do you know what you believe or are you just tearing down arguements trying to find an answer
what do you believe

I don't believe absolutely in anything, and I'm not looking to.
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Post by Gauz on Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:11 pm

Having faith, while it may be faith in something you can't really explain, is good for the soul I would say..
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Post by JumpingJet on Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:50 pm

Zaki90 wrote:Due to all the non-believers of God in the Christianity vs. Islam thread.

You can debate the existence of God here.

I believe in God because if makes sense.

Dude, what happens if people are religious? This thread could offend them....
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Post by Gauz on Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:11 pm

Do we really care though?
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Post by JumpingJet on Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:24 pm

I do..........

I guess you dont! lol
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Post by kslidz on Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:59 pm

im a christian zaki is muslim rot is a christian
so on and so forth

we dont seem to be offended
just trying to help honestly

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