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Post by dragoon9105 on Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:19 pm

You forget that the M-16 looked like a toy rifle and had jamming and realiability issues.

The reason why we didnt have tanks like the germans had in operation was becuase they were much slower and not good on gas and supplies.

The military favored the faster sherman tank becuase they could be massed produced much more easily and were much less costly to build.

As for the Civil war people were still thinking like idiots back then thinking if it fires more than once a minute its "improper warfare". Only once the union relized they were losing the war that the decided to start empoloying carbines and other technology against the confederates.
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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:26 pm

Dragoon....

the M-16 only had jamming and reliability issues because the Military decided to change the material that the firing chamber was made out of.

The Sherman Tank was not favored... the Christie tank was designed before the Sherman as a Light Tank/Cvalry Tank with possible heavier versions, but the Military didn't like it so they threw it away without incoporating the good design ideas, like the suspension and sloped armor

Erm... Improper? The Civil war is easily one of the bloodiest wars(it was the stepping stone from blind charges to trenches) due to its improper nature and use of Napoleonic tactics. The Reason the repeater was turned down was really more of a delay, as they didn't want to introduce it yet.
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Post by dragoon9105 on Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:32 pm

Then the repeater was held back as a secret weapon, remember the union didnt expect this to be a long war they were hoping to just march in and crush the rebels. They finally decided they need to start adding the more advanced tech like gatling guns and carbines when they relized they were losing the war.

Also.. how did this turn from a religous debate into a technological one?
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Post by PiEdude on Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:40 pm

Really, the repeater was turned down because the Army didn't want to spend a ton of money on ammo for it.

They were afraid of the prospect of having to produce a lot more bullets, and face the possibility of not producing fast enough, or just losing a lot of money.

Also, the Sherman tank was a weapon of convenience.
The Germans obviously had bigger tanks with bigger guns, but those took time to make, and we needed to get there RIGHT THE F*CK NOW!
The Sherman was chosen because of its ability to be mass produced quickly.
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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:08 pm

T-34's were produced en masse, a similar American tank could have been too. Once again, the Christie Tank was designed BEFORE the Sherman, they even had a light chassis to work off of.
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Post by Zaki90 on Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:33 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:Actually, no, the Japanese have absolutely despised the Koreans for hundreds of years. It has nothing to do with politics. And the Japanese hated the Chinese because they believed them to be cowards. Also not political.

And I still don't see where you are going with this Hamas-Hitler analogy. How does comparing Hamas to Hitler help your argument in any way? Hitler was a cult of personality, not a genius. The guy is probably one of the most brainfucked people on the face of the planet. Only someone with an IQ below room temperature could have taken Germany, the most technologically and militarily advanced country in the world at that time, and lost a war with the UK, US, and USSR. I could probably list ten decisions Hitler made in contradiction to everyone around him's advice that each could have turned the tide of the war, if he had just listened. Even if he had made the other nine, Germany could have still pulled out on top. It was like Hitler was actively sabotaging his own war effort. The only thing Hitler did for Germany was take all the credit for the economic revitalization, which was really brought on by the people themselves. Hitler's charisma helped, but he certainly wasn't some mastermind behind it.

And God knows, he had no good goal in mind for eradicating the Jews, as you claim Hamas does. The only thing comparing Hamas to Hitler can do is hurt your argument, so why make the comparison?

Really,

you think that it was easy for Hitler to achieve conquest of most of Europe against every other super power except Italy and Japan. Was it easy for Hitler to become the president of Germany and overthrow the government without the people getting angry. Hitler took Germany, which was in the middle of the Great Depression and turned into to New York City. Hitler was smart. Hitler was a great leader. Hitler was a total asshole in killing millions of Jews. But he was one of the greatest leaders in history. Yah he was stupid in morals, but he was able to plan and execute one of the most brilliant plans ever created in the history of man. Hitler was inches from crushing Britain had it not been for Russia and America.


I pointing a point that most muslims support the fact that Hamas is fighting for the end of Zionism. However, most of these muslims find that Hamas went overboard in becoming violent and aggressive.

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sat Mar 14, 2009 12:56 am

Actually, yes. Hitler got into office because the Nazi party already controlled most of the German congress, and his Nazi buddies pressured Bismark into appointing him chancellor. And considering that the countries he successfully defeated were France, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland with Russian help, I would say that no, he didn't have an easy time taking all of mainland Europe. If Hitler hadn't intervened in the Battle of Britain and redirected German bombers to terror bombing London rather than defeating the RAF, Britain would have fallen in a few weeks. If Hitler hadn't insisted on sharing manufacturing tools with Russia just months before his plan to invade them, the Russians never would have been able to build their T-34s. If Hitler had bothered to send the German troops into Russia with winter gear, Moscow would have fallen before winter was out. If Hitler hadn't intervened and split the force to take Stalingrad, sending half to take an area much further south, and if he hadn't fired two generals for disagreeing, and then fired the general on site for wishing to pull out as Russian troops encircled them and took direct command of the troops himself, Germany wouldn't have lost Stalingrad, and the Russian morale would have plummeted beyond low. And if Hitler had filled Rommel's request for heavier defenses, especially AAA, at Normandy Beach, the assault on D-Day would have been a complete flop. And if Hitler hadn't ordered every Panzer division along the North Sea coastline to stay at Calais for two weeks after D-Day, the invasion would have flopped anyway. And if Hitler had bothered to train any of the troops he was flooding into the western front, our green troops wouldn't have stood a chance. Do I really need to go on?

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:31 pm

Sigh...

Hitler was a political genius. He largely got into control with the help of the Nazi Party and the Wehrmarcht. He quickly subdued the Wehrmarcht, and set up his cabinet so that it was a steel trap. About six cabinets, each watching the other, waiting for a single misstep to gain prestige. If one fell out of line, five others would come crashing down upon it.

Unfortunately, he didn't make good decisions when it came to filling posts, his paranoia and conceit got the best of his judgment around 1942, his One Year Ban crippled the Luftwaft PERMANENTLY, and he worked with the Soviets too much. He actually ordered factory managers to give Soviet Representatives tours, and to show them everything.

During the visits, the Soviets complained that the Managers weren't following Hitler's orders and showing them the Heavy Tanks, when the managers insisted that they had.

After they left, a conversation went on something like this:

Manager: Soviets... If I never see another one again, it will be too late!
Engineer: Sir, do you think they expected heavier tanks because they have heavier tanks of their own?
Manager: ...Oh dear...

As for the Invasion of Russia... Had Britain already been subdued, it would have been neccessary to stave off future Russian aggression, and to preempt better Russian defenses. Unfortunately, he was DESPERATE not to repeat Napoleon's mistakes, and any talk of fighting during the winter was forbidden. Because, of course, Germany would have been victorious by winter.
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Post by Maginot Line on Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:03 am

Zaki90 wrote:

Really,

you think that it was easy for Hitler to achieve conquest of most of Europe against every other super power except Italy and Japan. Was it easy for Hitler to become the president of Germany and overthrow the government without the people getting angry. Hitler took Germany, which was in the middle of the Great Depression and turned into to New York City. Hitler was smart. Hitler was a great leader. Hitler was a total asshole in killing millions of Jews. But he was one of the greatest leaders in history. Yah he was stupid in morals, but he was able to plan and execute one of the most brilliant plans ever created in the history of man. Hitler was inches from crushing Britain had it not been for Russia and America.


I pointing a point that most muslims support the fact that Hamas is fighting for the end of Zionism. However, most of these muslims find that Hamas went overboard in becoming violent and aggressive.
Hitler? A good leader? Before going into Stalingrad, he and his top generals were practically ordering their troops not to bring cold weather gear because the war would be over by then. A good leader would take precautions.

Hitler swore to his countrymen that he would not get them involved in a waer against dozens of enemies, like what had happened in WWI. A good leader wouldn't break his promises.

Hitler was warned not to have his U- boats sink Cruise ships with Americans on it, yet he did, and pissed off one of the top world superpowers. A good leader would know when to back down.

Hitler was a charismatic man, nothing more. He was able to get people fired up about defeating the allies, but when it actually came to defeating them, her was the one who was causing the Axis to lose.

Same with the Japanese, if they hadn't been so obsessed with their god-emperor and had actually used tactics instead of banzai charges in broad daylight, things could have gone differently,

So... no... I do not think Hitler was a good leader... just a very charismatic one.
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Post by Zaki90 on Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:33 am

Maginot Line wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:

Really,

you think that it was easy for Hitler to achieve conquest of most of Europe against every other super power except Italy and Japan. Was it easy for Hitler to become the president of Germany and overthrow the government without the people getting angry. Hitler took Germany, which was in the middle of the Great Depression and turned into to New York City. Hitler was smart. Hitler was a great leader. Hitler was a total asshole in killing millions of Jews. But he was one of the greatest leaders in history. Yah he was stupid in morals, but he was able to plan and execute one of the most brilliant plans ever created in the history of man. Hitler was inches from crushing Britain had it not been for Russia and America.


I pointing a point that most muslims support the fact that Hamas is fighting for the end of Zionism. However, most of these muslims find that Hamas went overboard in becoming violent and aggressive.
Hitler? A good leader? Before going into Stalingrad, he and his top generals were practically ordering their troops not to bring cold weather gear because the war would be over by then. A good leader would take precautions.

Hitler swore to his countrymen that he would not get them involved in a waer against dozens of enemies, like what had happened in WWI. A good leader wouldn't break his promises.

Hitler was warned not to have his U- boats sink Cruise ships with Americans on it, yet he did, and pissed off one of the top world superpowers. A good leader would know when to back down.

Hitler was a charismatic man, nothing more. He was able to get people fired up about defeating the allies, but when it actually came to defeating them, her was the one who was causing the Axis to lose.

Same with the Japanese, if they hadn't been so obsessed with their god-emperor and had actually used tactics instead of banzai charges in broad daylight, things could have gone differently,

So... no... I do not think Hitler was a good leader... just a very charismatic one.

Don't take to his mistakes. Look at what he accomplished. 10 million people dead, control over Europe, and complete power and loyalty over Germany. In less than 6 years!

Could you do this?!?!

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Post by KristallNacht on Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:48 am

hell, he actually succeeded in every promise he actually made

1. wouldn't live to see germany lose another war
2. would fix the economy in 4 years
3. MOAR



plus, many indeals that started in Nazi Germany have carried over to modern society in American as well as europa
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:21 am

Zaki90 wrote:Don't take to his mistakes. Look at what he accomplished. 10 million people dead, control over Europe, and complete power and loyalty over Germany. In less than 6 years!

Could you do this?!?!

Are you kidding? If I had a bunch of buddies seeded into every branch of the government giving my minority party a vast majority, and was then appointed Chancellor, and then given full control of Germany, I could have done better. There would have been more dead, most of them enemies, the Jews would be helping me fix the economy and putting the finishing touches on nuclear technology, and I would have taken total control of all of Europe rather than just Poland, Austria, France, and a few smaller countries like Belgium and Denmark.

What Germany accomplished during World War II was mainly the parts where even a fucktard like Hitler couldn't fuck it up. "Go kill Poland. The Russians will help." I'm willing to bet even France could take Poland, considering cavalry and spears don't work very well against tanks. And then he said, "Go kill France." All he had to do was follow the same strategy Germany had used twice before to pwn France, and it worked again. Pretty much everything after that is downhill. He fucks up and let's the British escape, he fucks up and let's the RAF survive. He fucks up and gives the Russian's Stalingrad. He fucks up and let's Normandy fall. He fucks up and decides not to train any of the soldiers sent to the western front. He fucks up and moves the forces around in such a way that the eastern front collapses. And then, once he has assured that he's finally driven Germany into the ground, after much hard work, he kills himself, his wife, several of his generals, and all of their children.

Hitler is one of the biggest fuck ups in the history of fucking up.

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Post by KristallNacht on Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:32 am

Rot, have you ever actually read Hitler's reasons for persecuting the Jews? He makes a VERY strong argument.
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Post by Angatar on Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:33 am

I think it's a good thing he messed up...
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Post by KristallNacht on Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:36 am

which is entirely irrelevant. congratulation?
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Post by Angatar on Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:00 am

I haven't felt a need to contribute to a topic in any way today...
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Post by BBJynne on Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:31 am

Almost everything Hitler did was legal (while he assumed power and after).


that's kinda impressive if you think about it.

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Post by Nocbl2 on Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:32 am

Holy s*** this thread is HUGE!
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:09 pm

Impressive in the sense that he pretty much had his friends suspend the law to do it? No, not really.

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Post by Zaki90 on Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:40 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:Don't take to his mistakes. Look at what he accomplished. 10 million people dead, control over Europe, and complete power and loyalty over Germany. In less than 6 years!

Could you do this?!?!

Are you kidding? If I had a bunch of buddies seeded into every branch of the government giving my minority party a vast majority, and was then appointed Chancellor, and then given full control of Germany, I could have done better. There would have been more dead, most of them enemies, the Jews would be helping me fix the economy and putting the finishing touches on nuclear technology, and I would have taken total control of all of Europe rather than just Poland, Austria, France, and a few smaller countries like Belgium and Denmark.

What Germany accomplished during World War II was mainly the parts where even a fucktard like Hitler couldn't fuck it up. "Go kill Poland. The Russians will help." I'm willing to bet even France could take Poland, considering cavalry and spears don't work very well against tanks. And then he said, "Go kill France." All he had to do was follow the same strategy Germany had used twice before to pwn France, and it worked again. Pretty much everything after that is downhill. He fucks up and let's the British escape, he fucks up and let's the RAF survive. He fucks up and gives the Russian's Stalingrad. He fucks up and let's Normandy fall. He fucks up and decides not to train any of the soldiers sent to the western front. He fucks up and moves the forces around in such a way that the eastern front collapses. And then, once he has assured that he's finally driven Germany into the ground, after much hard work, he kills himself, his wife, several of his generals, and all of their children.

Hitler is one of the biggest fuck ups in the history of fucking up.

Go ahead... I want you to be like Hitler. Conquer Europe in 6 years without the use of nukes.

Thanks to Hitler, I have a satellite tv. Think where would be without him. No TV, no people on Moon, no awesome G2 phones.

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:32 pm

If it were 1935 and I had full cooperation of the German military and people, I could conquer the whole of Europe in four years. I would take the same sort of opening that Hitler did (on the advice of his generals and the Schliefen Plan), hitting Poland and France. I would not be allying with Russia, though. However, I would have marched all the way to Dunkirk and likely cut the British Army in half. Then, I would launch a giant air war against Britian, focused only on AAA and airfields. The RAF would be crushed (just like it would have been if Hitler hadn't redirected the air campaign against civilian targets), and Britian would have been invaded and fallen shortly thereafter, having a very small army after their total defeat at Dunkirk and no air force to speak of.

Then I would turn my attention east, and begin a campaign into Russia. My troops would be outfitted with winter gear, and since I never insisted on giving Russia full access to my manufacturing equipment and plans, I wouldn't come up against T-34s, which would be impossible to make without German tools. Moscow would likely fall in the first year, and Stalingrad right after that. I wouldn't split my forces to make it go faster, since I'd understand that patience is key to actually winning.

By the time America got its isolationist ass into gear, it would have nowhere to stage a massive landing into Europe from. It might try North Africa, but my top general, Erwin Rommel, would have the best supplies and constant reinforcements, and I wouldn't have to worry about the British Navy making trouble in the Mediterranean, since it had already fallen. Any American incursions into Europe would ultimately fail. Not even Patton could correct a situation. Their best hope would be to attempt a landing in Spain, but Spain would already be under the control of a friendly dictator.

At this point, I'd likely betray Italy and Spain and set up puppet governments, as I had already done in France, Poland, and Russia. I would then stage landings into North America through Mexico, promising them that they can have back all the territory America forced them to sell.

America would be a tougher nut to crack than Europe, having had time to prepare its defenses, but Sherman tanks would be no match for anything my troops would be driving, and eventually, America would fall.

And then, I'd push further east, into China and Japan. I'm not a fan of the Japanese, especially during this era. They are practically barbarians with guns and planes. However, by this point, the Jews, who I didn't drive out of Germany, would have perfected atomic weapons. Einstein, one of my close advisors, would be working with other top German scientists, and while Einstein worked on nuclear power plants, the others would perfect nuclear weapons. I'd probably sink Japan, since it is of no strategic use (so, probably nuke every major city and then pretend like it isn't there). And then, I could push down into Africa and retake all the colonies that used to be German before World War I, and then into South America.

Bang, world conquered. Time taken? Maybe eight or nine years. Casualties? Massive. Friendly casualties? Not so massive.

Hitler was in the perfect position to take over the entire world with almost no resistance, and he blew, even though he got ten chances to make it work.

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:26 pm

Ehm... Rot?

You forgot certain points...

Like taking the designs for the Messerschmidt 282, Sturmgewehr-44, Panzerschrek, Tiger tanks, Tabun/Sarin gas, and T-34, and then giving them to the Germans in '38.

Oh, and stockpile as much tungsten as you could get by '40.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:32 pm

I'd actually probably redesign the Tiger slightly so that it shared common parts with other tanks, so that if it broke down, parts from other tanks could be salvaged and used to repair it.

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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:46 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:I'd actually probably redesign the Tiger slightly so that it shared common parts with other tanks, so that if it broke down, parts from other tanks could be salvaged and used to repair it.
True, you'd have to do that.

But you'd also need a decent way to transport those tanks across Poland and the Ukraine, and most of Russia, so they don't wear out.

Oh, and get Nikita Kruschev on the payroll, and have him ship a quarter of the USSR's industrial capacity WEST, not east.
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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:37 am

Heh. Always did like him. Better than Stalin...

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