The God Who Wasn't There

Page 3 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:40 pm

I'd like to point out, though, that when I thought about it, while the second half makes a slightly more compelling argument in general, it actually strays almost completely from the topic at hand, whether or not Jesus existed. It seems more like the video is about whether Village Christian Schools should teach Christianity (it's a Christian school...so I don't see the problem), and the first half, disproving Jesus as a man, is meant to counter what Doctor Sipus says about how there is historical evidence of Jesus that serves as empirical data, but not proof.

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:19 am

ReconToaster wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:Update: I somehow managed to get through the video. The second half was slightly more compelling and filled with fewer blatant fallacies than the first half. Now I have the task of taking what I've written down (the entire transcript of the video) and turning it into a giant multiquote.
This... is the way the world ends
The air raid sirens blare as the forum becomes an anthill of activity. Everyone races to the bunkers, stumbling as they don helmets, flak jackets, and special optical gear that prevent information overload.

They scramble for the lowest, deepest parts of the bunker, while the bravest of members dare to peek through the armored slits of the reinforcing walls, cold sweat beading on their foreheads.
From his sensor booth, Pheonix waves frantically. "The gravitometer picked it up! It's almost here!"

At the edge of the horizon, they finally see it: a swirling storm of logic and reason too vast for Mortal Man to comprehend. It darkens the sky as it grows nearer, and the members are petrified as they see vast columns and updrafts of quotes, punctuated by thunderbolts of references. Driving rains of reason scouring the land down to the bedrock, and... oh God, is that a bibliography?

Among the din and the clashes and the roars of the Apocalypse, all hear a tiny voice say "God help us all..."

Surprise overcomes boundless terror and, as one, all turn to face ReconToaster. He, in turn, faces Pieman who is cowering behind him, his overly large helmet falling down to cover his eyes.

Pieman realizes what everyone is thinking, and speaks again.
"Sorry, did everybody think he said that?"
Rasq'uire'laskar
Rasq'uire'laskar
Crimson Scribe

Male Number of posts : 2927
Age : 29
Location : Follow the cold shivers running down your spine.
Registration date : 2008-06-29

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:10 am

Oh, by the way, anyone happen to the know the char limit on posts? It'll make it way easier for me to break this post up into pieces without trial and error.

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Toaster on Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:27 am

That was fucking great Rasq!

@ Rot, you've had the most "over char limit" posts of anyone here... If you don't know what it is... I don't think anyone does.
Toaster
Toaster
Lord's Personal Minion

Male Number of posts : 2715
Age : 26
Location : Ohio
Registration date : 2008-06-19

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:23 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:Oh, by the way, anyone happen to the know the char limit on posts? It'll make it way easier for me to break this post up into pieces without trial and error.

It about 1700, I think

@Rasq' - That was just friggin awesome
@Pie - That was pretty good too
Kasrkin Seath
Kasrkin Seath
The Law

Male Number of posts : 3018
Location : Michigan
Registration date : 2008-07-12

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by PiEdude on Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:09 am

Kasrkin Seath wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:Oh, by the way, anyone happen to the know the char limit on posts? It'll make it way easier for me to break this post up into pieces without trial and error.

It about 1700, I think

@Rasq' - That was just friggin awesome
@Pie - That was pretty good too

Thanks Seath.
The funny thing is, when I found it, I kept looking for something else because "it didn't fit the situation as well as what I'm looking for" Razz
PiEdude
PiEdude
Crimson Jester

Male Number of posts : 4573
Age : 26
Location : In the middle of a hollowed crust.
Registration date : 2008-03-24

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by RX on Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:08 pm

kslidz wrote:

that having dark hair and brown eyes makes you better at using chopsticks

Believe me, it does not..
RX
RX
Minion

Male Number of posts : 1957
Age : 25
Location : Ancient Kingdom of Norwegia
Registration date : 2008-12-12

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:42 pm

ReconToaster wrote:That was fucking great Rasq!
Kasrkin Seath wrote:@Rasq' - That was just friggin awesome
@Pie - That was pretty good too
I'm like one of those courtroom artists, except I write instead of draw.
Rasq'uire'laskar
Rasq'uire'laskar
Crimson Scribe

Male Number of posts : 2927
Age : 29
Location : Follow the cold shivers running down your spine.
Registration date : 2008-06-29

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by CivBase on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:21 pm

Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
Llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
The char limit is about... 12,000.
CivBase
CivBase
Adbot

Male Number of posts : 7336
Location : Etchisketchistan
Registration date : 2008-04-27

http://pathwaygames.forumotion.net/

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:29 pm

Righto...so then a post with 88000 characters would be...8 posts. Righto. So I just have to divide it in half thrice.

EDIT: Alright, I've divided it up, but it's going to be 9 posts, as I tried to break them at topic changes and thus didn't adhere strictly to 12000 characters per post.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by CivBase on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:30 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:Righto...so then a post with 88000 characters would be...8 posts. Righto. So I just have to divide it in half thrice.
:Blink:
8....
8....
88,000?












































Outahere

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Bzsigy2
CivBase
CivBase
Adbot

Male Number of posts : 7336
Location : Etchisketchistan
Registration date : 2008-04-27

http://pathwaygames.forumotion.net/

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Rot's Giant Post: Part 1

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:39 pm

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:The Earth revolves around the sun. But it wasn't always that way. The sun used to revolve around the Earth. It was like that for hundreds of years, until it was discovered to be otherwise, and for even a few hundred years after that. But, ultimately, after much kicking and screaming, the Earth did, in fact, begin to revolve around the sun. Christianity was wrong about the solar system.

The fallacy here is pretty easy to see. Everyone was wrong about the solar system. The Holy Roman Catholic Church, for reasons I don't know, decided to add all sorts of nifty little things to astronomy, stuff you won't find in the Bible anywhere, and then some people came along as pointed out that it didn't make sense. The Holy Roman Catholic Church, which, as you may recall, we have pointed out as not being exactly the best example of Christianity, persecuted these astronomers and scientists. Christianity was not wrong about the solar system. The Holy Roman Catholic Church and the Pope were wrong about the solar system. I'd like to draw a line of distinction between the two.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:What if it is wrong about something else, too? This movie is about what happened when I went looking for Jesus.

And interesting opening line, I suppose. It at least promises to be interesting.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Rene: Jesus is our Lord and Savior, and, um, we were at a fellowship with...with God, and He loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son so that He could be the mediator between us, people that He created in His likeness, and Himself.

"Who was Jesus? Jesus was the Messiah to the Jews, and, uh, He is the Savior to, uh, Mankind."

"He's the Son of God who came to save us and came here to give His life for our sins."

Julian: Jesus is somebody that came into this world, uh, He came as a human, and, uh, He came and died for us. He shed His blood so that we might have salvation.

Kaye: Jesus was the Son of God - the only begotten Son of God, and, um, that's the best answer I can give you to who He is."

Joy: He is someone who just came out of incredible love for the world, to...to give His life for everyone, and so, to me, I guess, Jesus is my Savior.

"You can't really know if a theory is true or not until you try it, so I would say: Try Jesus."

Alright, so here, Brian establishes that he interviewed Christians too. Of course, he interviews Christians off the streets, and seems to hand pick his non-Christian sources, but details.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Look at how happy Christians are when they're talking about Jesus. How come I'm not this happy? I want to be this happy. Of course, those aren't the only faces of Christianity.

As soon as I heard this, I was sure he was going to pick out the most radical Christians out there. I suppose I was a tad disappointed.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<CHARLES MANSON
a.k.a. "Jesus Christ"
Inspired followers to kill 11 people>

I can't find any evidence that Charles Manson was a Christian. From what I can tell, the guy was a charismatic sociopath.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<PAT ROBERTSON
Radical Cleric/Politician
Suggested bombing of U.S. State Dept.>

I'd like to see an actual quote where Pat Robertson, in all seriousness, suggests that the State Department should be bombed.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<DENA SCHLOSSER
Devout Christian
Cut her baby's arms off, for God>

We have an instance here of a woman who killed her child and then said "God told me to." How many times criminals have tried to use that excuse, I have no idea. How many schizophrenics hear voices and just assume God is talking to them, I have no idea. How many true Christians believe they should cut off the limbs of their child and offer it to God, slim to none. This is clearly an outlier as far as the average Christian goes. Comparing these sorts of people with happy Christians he found off the street is hardly fair.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<TIM LaHAYE & JERRY B. JENKINS
Authors, "Left Behind" series
Look forward to the day when all
non-Christians are thrown into a
lake of fire, "howling and screeching">

And here marks the first time a quote is either changed or purposely taken out of context to change its meaning, in order to mislead the audience. This is when I realized that I wasn't dealing with Michael Moore BS, I was dealing with Loose Change BS. Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins look forward to the day when God places His eternal kingdom on Earth and sin is vanquished forever. That also happens to entail nonbelievers being moved from Hades to Hell (I'm not entirely sure on this, but the Bible seems to suggest that sinners who die without Christ prior to the Great White Throne Judgment are sent to Hades, and not subject to fiery torment until the Great White Throne Judgment). So, by simple logic, one could say that the two look forward to the day when all the nonbelievers are sentenced to an eternal damnation. However, as rational humans, we can realize that, in reality, they do not look forward to the Great White Throne Judgment and subsequent Millennial Rule as a whole, but look forward to the paradise promised to them. It is absurd to then assume and even accuse them of looking forward to the day when all of the nonbelievers are sentenced to their eternal damnation. If Brian Flemming had an actual quote saying that these two did indeed look forward to nonbelievers being sentenced to eternal damnation, he would have used the full quote. Instead, he uses this partial quote, likely pulled from another area apart from where the two say they look forward to the Millennial Rule.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<86 CRISPY FANS
of similar apocalyptic literature>

Erm...weren't we talking about Christians? I believe this is some reference to some doomsday cult or another that committed mass suicide. I don't recall Christianity calling for mass suicide prior to the Rapture.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:So I guess it's kind of a mixed bag.

Again, this is hardly fair. He picked out specific outliers, all of which I've already pointed out are either not nearly as bad as he misrepresents them to be or not actually in any way related to Christians. That is hardly evidence of Christians being a "mixed bag." And even then, not all who proclaim to be Christians are. And dear God, by this same flawed rationale, I could go through and make atheists look terrible. Think of how many terrible terrible crimes were committed by atheists! Did they commit these crimes because they were atheists? In most cases, hardly.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:In case you haven't heard the story before, here is a, uh, brief recap. It all started here, in this field. Uh, some shepherds were sleeping, and they were woken up by a star

Wait, sorry, it started in the field with the shepherds? I would have thought the story started with God's vision to Mary. By the time the shepherds are brought in, Jesus has already been born.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:and then an angel of the Lord came and said that a new king was being born in Bethlehem, and then, uh, this happened

I just want to note Brian's tone here. He later reveals that he used to be a fundamentalist Christian, so I'm pretty sure he knows exactly what he's talking about. Yet he seems to pretend like it is all so very foreign to him. I-don't-even-know-what-that-is? I'm just not buying it. How hard is it to say, "And then more angels came and they all sang"? Really, is it that hard? The point is that, through his tone, Brian is trying to make the story sound unreasonable.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:and then the shepherds rushed off to find the new king who was being born. Meanwhile, back at the manger, the virgin Mary gave birth without complications

Alright, this part is alright, though it seems like he stresses the "without complications" part as if this is somehow unreasonable or unrealistic. Honestly, did all women have complications during childbearing back then? I'd assume some of us made it out alright. I know it was much more prominent than it is today, but it isn't so prominent as to shed doubt on the story. Especially considering that, according to the story, God is behind this birth.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:and the word of this new king, named Jesus, had spread all across the land, and three Magi showed up with gifts, and everybody celebrated the birth of the baby Jesus.

Erm...not really. The Magi spotted a star and followed it for some time, likely a few years, until it lead them to Jesus. The star was actually the aligning of several constellations and possibly planets, if I recall correctly, and when this happened, Magi believed it symbolized the birth of a new king. In the instance of Jesus' star, there was an extra something aligned that made it symbolize the birth of a great king.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:King Herod had heard about this new king that was being born, and he sent his troops out to kill all the male babies in the area.

King Herod learned of Jesus from the Magi, and initially planned on using them to locate Jesus for him. However, the Magi were warned to take another route home, and, foiled, King Herod proceeded to start killing babies.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:So an angel of the Lord came to warn Joseph, and he was able to get his family out of the country, and into Egypt.

This part is fairly accurate.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:43 pm; edited 3 times in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Rot's Giant Post: Part 2

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:39 pm

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Narrator: When Jesus was twelve years old, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem for the Passover, as it was the custom. As they were returning home with relatives and friends, they suddenly realized that Jesus was not with them.

Mary: Have you seen Jesus anywhere?

RandomLady: No, I haven't. I thought He was with you.

Joseph: We missed Him, coming out of Jerusalem, but we thought He might have been with friends.

Narrator: After searching for three days, they finally decided to come to the temple and ask about Jesus. And there they found him, sitting among the teachers, listening to them, and asking them questions, and all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and at his answers.

Mary: Son, why have you treated us so? Your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.

Jesus: How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business?

And, cue corny movie. The movie tends to be accurate, though, at least. But, again, I don't doubt that he chose this particular movie for tone. The corniness of the movie again portrays things as ridiculous.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:And then, Jesus went missing, for eighteen years. Uh, when He appears again, He is thirty years old, and in need of baptism. Uh, so He went to John the Baptist, who performed the service, and, uh, after he was baptized, Jesus spent forty days and forty nights in the wilderness being tempted by Satan. And then it was on to the miracles.

Jesus: Lazarus, come forth!

I'm surprised at how little time Brian spends on Jesus' life after he resurfaces. He spends all that time going into great detail about his birth, then just sums a majority of his life up in a few sentences with another clip from a corny movie. I suppose this is because the stress is on the fact that the Bible doesn't talk of Christ's childhood past a mention of the incident in Jerusalem.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:And then, Jesus hit Jerusalem, and, uh, I mean, He really hit Jerusalem. He was very angry at the present authorities and they felt the same way about Him.

RandomPharisee1: This man Jesus has stirred up the people from Galilee to Jerusalem with His false teachings. You'll do a great service by helping us to rid the nation of this false prophet.

Jesus knew He was going to die the next day, so he prepared one last meal with His disciples.

Jesus: Take and eat: this is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of Me. Truly I tell you, I will not drink again, of this fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom.

RandomPharisee2: I demand, by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ!

Jesus: I tell you hereafter that you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God.

RandomPharisee2: He has uttered blasphemy! Why do we still need witnesses? You have heard His blasphemy. What is your judgment?

RandomPharisee3: Death to the blasphemer!

RandomPharisee4: He should die!

It was still very early in the morning when Pilate received the news.

Pilate: The sun is not yet risen. Why was it necessary to call me down here at this hour?

RandomGuard: The Chief Priest demanded that you be called, sir. They want quick judgment of this man.

Pilate: Here is your king. Shall I crucify your king?

Jesus: Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit.

Narrator: He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit. And behold! The curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

And then Jesus rose from the dead.

Narrator: He was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

God: This Jesus, who was taken up from you into Heaven, will come in the same way as you say Him go into Heaven.

Jesus: Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

This part, again, tends to be accurate, but then, this may be because Brian relies almost wholly on the corny video clips to portray the events, rather than paraphrasing himself. I'm again surprised at how little of this period of Jesus' life Brian goes into, but moving on.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Brian Flemming: After Jesus died and was resurrected, in your own words, what happened then? How did Christianity begin to spread?

Joy: Uh, Christianity spread from Pentecost on, I guess you could say, and it was through the power of the Holy Spirit, I believe, that the Word of the Gospel spread.

Why is it that Christians can be so specific about the life of Christ, but they're vague about what happened after He left?

Joy: And it was according to God's divine plan, cause as you look through history, you can see how God put certain circumstances or, uh, events to take place to help the Gospel spread across the world.

Aren't Christian leaders telling them the story?

Brian Flemming: Do you know much about how Christianity spread in those early days?

"Well it spread through word of mouth, you know. I know that, through...through what I've learned, you know, it...it has spread throughout history."

"The...the Holy Spirit descended upon them, and gave them, really, the...the...the power and the ability to talk about Jesus, and...and share him with other people in the world."

Brian writes these answers off as being vague, and I guess they are, to a degree. But really, people tend to know more about Christ's life than they do about the early Church, probably because the history of the early Church isn't quite as exciting. It feels more like a history lesson.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Let's go back in time to see what really did happen. Uh, too far.

Can't miss his "accidental" rewind slip, here, where, going back in time, it shows a picture of an ape man, a clear reference to evolution. This seems to become less and less a serious documentary and more and more a series of cheap shots taken at Christianity.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Let's go back to the first century in the Year of Our Lord. Jesus Christ is said to have lived this life, here, in the first three decades of the century, dying somewhere around the year 33. The Gospels all came later. Mark was the first one written, and the other three are clearly derived from Mark. Mark mentions the destruction of the Jewish temple, which happened in the year 70. So the Gospels all came later than that. Probably much later. There's a gap of four decades or more.

This is generally true, though the "probably much later" is clearly an opinion and not based on much. Most historians give time frames ranging from a decade to three decades for the gospels. If we consider that the gospels weren't written in a day, but likely took, at the least, a few years to pen, considering the methods of writing back then, as well, then it can be assumed that the authors of these books likely started during the gap mentioned.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:47 pm; edited 2 times in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Rot's Giant Post: Part 3

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:39 pm

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Most of what we know of this period comes from a man who says he saw Jesus Christ come to him in a vision. He was the apostle, Paul, formerly known as Saul of Tarsus.

Narrator: After many days of hard traveling, Saul’s caravan was near its destination, Damascus. The journey was nearly over. Then, suddenly...

RandomServant1: The master, he is ill!

RandomServant2: The light! The light!

Jesus: Saul! Saul! Why persecutest thou me?

Saul: Who art Thou, Lord?

Paul says the Lord told him to start spreading the Word of Jesus Christ, and he did it with a vengeance.

Paul: Your heart is not right before God! Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, for I see that you are in the bond of iniquity.

Paul was a bit of a scold, but the salvation he offered through the god he called Christ Jesus was very popular. He traveled widely and, in his wake, left behind groups of new Christians who formed the early Christian church. Paul wrote lots of letters about Christianity; in fact, he wrote eighty thousand words about the Christian religion. These documents represent almost all we have of the history of Christianity during this decades long gap. And here's the interesting thing: if Jesus was a human who had recently lived, nobody told Paul.

And here is where we depart from the realms of actuality, where Brian pretty much destroys any credibility with me. He later claims he was a fundamentalist Christian, so did he just forget that Saul went around killing Christians? Saul's job was hunting down and imprisoning followers of Christ. Of course the guy had heard of Jesus! He was going to Damascus specifically to arrest early Church leaders.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Paul never heard of Mary, Joseph, Bethlehem, Herod, John the Baptist. He never heard about any of these miracles. He never quotes anything Jesus is supposed to have said. He never mentions Jesus having a ministry of any kind at all. He doesn't know about any entrance into Jerusalem. He never mentions Pontius Pilate or a Jewish mob or any trials at all. Paul doesn't know any of what we would call the Story of Jesus, except for these last three events, and even these, Paul never places on Earth. Just like the other savior gods of the time, Paul's Christ Jesus died, rose, and ascended all in a mythical realm.

Not mentioning in a series of letters about how to live a good Christian life, how to survive in a world that hated Christ, and prophecy and not knowing or believing is quite a leapt to conclusion for Brian to be making. And, frankly, judging from some of the claims Brian makes prior to and after this one, I wouldn't doubt if Paul does mention a few of these things specifically in his epistles. At this moment, I'm not going to go through and read the entirety of his writings, however, since the mere fact that not mentioning and being unaware of are so distinctively different that even Brian should know better than to make such a claim pretty much destroys Brian's argument here. The intent here is clear. Brian is trying to change facts to mislead his audience.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<"If Jesus had been
on earth, he would
not even have been
a priest."
Hebrews 8:4>

This is the first, but not the last, verse to be pulled out of context. Let's get our bearings, shall we?

Hebrews 8 wrote:1The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. 3Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed from the law. 5They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." 6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

What's all that mean? That when Jesus was on Earth, He wasn't a priest, because His job was more important than theirs. I'd also like to take the time to point out that Paul mentions Jesus' ministry here (the one Brian claims he was unaware of).

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Paul doesn't believe that Jesus was ever a human being. He's not even aware of the idea. And he's the link between the time frame given for the life of Jesus and the appearance of the first Gospel account of that life. This is why you don't hear many Christian leaders talking about the early days of Christianity: because once you assemble the facts, the story is that Jesus lived, everyone forgot, and then they remembered.

No...not really. I've already made it pretty clear that Brian is purposely misrepresenting facts here, but I'd also like to point out something else. We have another link to the history of the early Church. It's this little book called Acts. It was written by Luke, and is considered a sort of "sequel" to the Gospel of Luke.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:But it gets even shakier than that. Allegorical literature was extremely common back then.

Richard Carrier: Mark himself probably did not believe he was writing history. He was writing a symbolic message. He was writing a gospel, you know, the good news, and symbolizing it using, uh, you know, Biblical parallels, using parallels to pagan religions, and so forth.

Erm, any evidence to back that up, or is that just some random guy's opinion? Sure, there was some allegorical literature flying around back then, but the Gospels don't make really good allegories. If Brian had tried to write this off as fiction, maybe he could get away with it, but allegorical? I think not.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Alan Dundes: There are these other gospels, which - and they are the apocrypha: there are apocryphal New Testament and apocryphal Old Testament stories that were, frankly, were too folkloristic and they got thrown out because people thought these are...these couldn't have happened, therefore we get rid of them - but of course, some of the stories, I mean the apocryphal stories, are as interesting as the regular Bible. They've got...

Brian Flemming: They...they kept in walking on water and rising from the dead...

Alan Dundes: They kept in...

Brian Flemming: ...but the others, those were...

Alan Dundes: ...well there have been...

Brian Flemming: ...too outlandish.

Alan Dundes: ...attempts to so called, it's called demythologize it, and there've been attempts, mostly by Jesuits and other intellectuals, who say, uh, who are upset by the, in a sense, the folklore, if you like, and they say, "we've got to...let's make this more intellectual; let's get rid of the folklore; let's get rid of the virgin birth, which seems unlikely; let's get rid of all this stuff." Of course, if you take away the folklore away from the Bible, you don't have a heck of a lot left, except "begot begot begot begot."

Before I continue, I just want to say that I've grown to dislike Alan Dundes. Writing down what he says is very confusing, because the guy doesn't seem to know what he's saying until he's said it. He also uses a lot of large words I can't be bothered to look up. Moving right along, I'm just going to assume that he's referring to the Gnostic Gospels. Of course, by the time the Gnostic Gospels were written (that being sometime in the second or third century), most of the New Testament was already accepted as legitimate. In a sense, the apocryphal books Alan talks about here are like fan fiction of the actual New Testament. As an admin of Halo Fanon, let me tell you, fan fiction can get way unrealistic.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Robert M. Price: Well, in the case of someone like Caesar Augustus, around whom many of the same myths clustered, we know there was nonetheless a Caesar Augustus, because he's intricately tied into the history of the time and many of the secular historians talk about him. You can't rewrite history without Caesar Augustus. But at the very two points, Jesus appears to be locked into history. These stories are either still mythical, like the Slaughter of the Innocents derived right out of book of Exodus, or they...they contain outrageous probabilities, such as the...as the Jewish supreme council meeting on Passover eve to get rid of this guy. It's just out of the question.

Odd, looks like Robert mixed up Passover with Sabbath, because, as I recall, there is no edict from God that men may not meet or do work on Passover, considering the celebration itself lasts something like a week. The eve of Passover is linked to a specific day in the Jewish calendar, the fifteenth of Nisan, and doesn't land on a particular day of the week each year.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Or Pontius Pilate letting go a known killer of Romans, an insurrectionist, Barabbas, and just letting Jesus be thrown to the mob, uh, after, however, trying to get him off the hook as if he has to, uh, have a vote on it. It just defies any sort of historical verisimilitude

There was a tradition in Jerusalem in which, on Passover, Pilate would release one prisoner. The crowd demanded Barabbas, and so he released him. However, Pilate doesn't just throw Jesus to the mod, and then afterwards try to save Him. He doesn't understand why they want Him killed, questions continually, and finally gives in. There is no rescue attempt later.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:and then when you realize, "Well, you know, there were other ancient Jews and Jewish Christians who believed Jesus had been killed a century before under King Alexander Jenius"

References, plox?

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:or in the gospel of Peter, it says that Herod had Jesus killed.

I'm not sure if he means the Gospel of Mark, which was an account of Peter, or if he means the Epistles of Peter, but I figured that Mark doesn't say that (kind of hard to miss a discrepancy like that in such a frequently read book of the Bible), I decided to give the epistles a look. You guessed it, no mention of Herod, at all.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Well...what...how could this be, uh, a matter of such diversity if it was a recent event that people remembered? It...it just begins to make you wonder, "Is this man really part of the historical time stream?" Or does it...doesn't it begin to look like someone else tried to put, uh, a figure, originally mythical, into a historical framework, and made various stabs at it?

No, considering just how little evidence you actually presented, and how much of that evidence doesn't stand up to a slight breeze, no, it doesn't make me wonder.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:47 pm; edited 2 times in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Rot's Giant Post: Part 4

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:39 pm

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Brian Flemming: Can you give me an example of a story that started as fiction, is known to have been fiction, and then it became considered real with the addition of details?

Barbara Mikkelson: Oh, well, we've seen this many number of times and, say, our glurge stories, where...where stories have started out as actual works of fiction, where they were written by...by...by identifiable authors, they were written and provided as works of fiction. And they have since gained a life and have spread on their own where they are now told and...and relayed as true stories, as this-really-happened tales, and they are believed as such.

Did you ever read that news story about that guy who was found dead and they couldn't figure out how he died, but when they did the autopsy, they found out he had a can of spam shoved down his throat? Turns out he was a spammer, and that's why he got killed. People like the moral of that story, which is why I made it up. And when I first posted it on my web blog, I labeled it as fiction.

I guess Brian's point here is that fiction can evolve into fact, sort of. I believe the term for this is fanon, where fiction becomes so generally accepted that it is considered canon. However, it doesn't take a person with half a brain to realize that this happens. Connecting this to the Bible is where Brian seems to struggle.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Alan Dundes: Jesus’ life does conform to the hero factor. It's a hero pattern with so many incidents. Raglan gave a score. He took, actually, the Oedipus thing of all things, was the basic, uh...uh...uh, model, and then gave other heroes scores as to how many of the twenty-two points they had in their lives. It's Raglan's...it's Raglan's pattern that is the one that I used. His mother is - here's the hero tradition from Raglan's The Hero - I'm getting this from The Study of Folklore, an early book that I edited

Ah, Alan, where would we be without you? Well, he lists the factors of a hero correctly enough, though I don't know if his scores are necessarily accurate. I looked into it, and got a list of scores for the same heroes that varied from his own. However, let's take a look and see if we can arrive at the same conclusion for Jesus.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:his mother is a royal virgin

His mother was a virgin, but not exactly royal. However, we'll give them this one. That's one.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:his father is a king

Well, I suppose it depends on which father we're talking about, here. For our purposes, His father will be God. So that's two.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:often a near relative of his mother

I don't recall God being a near relative of Mary. If we're going to count two, we can't count three (conversely, I believe Joseph was a relative of some sort, but if we count three, we cannot count two, since Joseph was not a king). So we're still at two.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:but the circumstances of his conception are unusual.

This one is hardly a stretch. That's three.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Five: he's also reputed to be the son of a god.

Again, no stretch here. That's four.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Six: at birth an attempt is made of him by his father to kill him, but

Regardless of which father (or, in Raglan's actual pattern, any paternal-like relative) we use here, this one isn't true. Herod is not His father, and so I'm not counting this one. Still at four.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:seven: he is spirited away, and

But since an attempt was made and He was spirited away, that's five.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:eight: reared by foster parents in a far country.

Far country, yes. Foster parents, no. Still five.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Nine: we're told nothing of his childhood, but

We're told a little bit about his childhood, but not a lot. That's six.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:ten: on reaching manhood, he returns and goes to his future kingdom.

I suppose this depends on which kingdom you're talking about. Jesus could go anywhere and be in his current/future kingdom. However, we know from that little snippet of his childhood that he returns to Israel long before reaching manhood. As such, no cigar here. Still six.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Eleven: after the victory over a king or giant or dragon

Since we're only talking about Jesus' current life as written in the four Gospels, I don't recall Jesus beating any king, giant, dragon, or otherwise boss-style enemy. Still six.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:he marries a princess at twelve.

Definitely a no go. Still six.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Thirteen: he becomes king.

Jesus was a teacher, not a king. He was called King of the Jews by some, though, so we'll give them this. That's seven.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Fourteen: reigns uneventfully, but

Uneventfully? If stirring up the crowds, performing miracles, and generally avoiding plots against His life is uneventful, then I don't want to know what eventful is. Still at seven.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:fifteen: prescribes laws.

Jesus doesn't really change the law. He just defines it a bit more clearly and creates a loophole where we can get out from under the law's condemnation. However, we'll still give this, so that's eight.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Sixteen: later he loses favor with his subjects.

Jesus doesn't lose favor with His subjects, since those that plot against Him hated him all along. Still at eight.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Seventeen: he is driven from the throne of the city.

Except He never sat upon the throne of the city. Still eight.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Eighteen: he meets with a mysterious death.

Crucifixion was the standard execution style. Nothing mysterious about it. Still at eight.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Nineteen: often at the top of a hill.

This one is true, and we're at nine.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Twenty: his children, if any, do not succeed him.

No children, no wife, and no succession. I guess, technically, this is true...technically. Up to ten.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Twenty-one: his body is not buried, but nevertheless

No, His body was buried. Still at ten.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:twenty-two: he has one or more holy sepulchers.

I don't know if the sepulcher that His followers managed to buy for Him was "holy," and the implication of this is that he has a sepulcher (which is a type of burial chamber), but is not buried in it, which is also not true, so I won't be giving this one either. So, in the end, that's ten.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:So, uh, Oedipus gets twenty-two points out of the twenty-two. Theseus gets twenty, Romulus seventeen, Hercules seventeen, Perseus sixteen, etc. I don't remember, off the top, how many Jesus got, but it was high.

<Hero: Score
Oedipus: 22
Theseus: 20
Jesus: 19
Romulus: 17
Hercules: 17
Perseus: 16
Zeus: 15
Jason: 15
Robin Hood: 13
Apollo: 11>

Bad news, guys. Somehow, Brian managed to give Jesus 19 of these. He must have been pretty generous, if you ask me, because even I feel that some of the ones I gave were a stretch.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Robert M. Price: There are other similar savior figures in the same neighborhood at the same time in history, Mithras, Adus, Adonis, Osiris, Tammuz, and so forth, and, uh...and, uh, nobody thinks that these characters are anything but mythical, uh, and their stories are so similar. Most of them, in fact, having some kind of resurrection or another, um, sometimes even with celebrations, after three days, and so forth, that, uh, it...it just seems like special pleading to, let's say, "oh, in this one case, it really happened."

We'll start with Mithras. Similarity? Virgin birth. No, not really. Mithras was not conceived by sexual relations, he was born out of a rock. Much later, some guys tried to retcon it to say it was an actual virgin birth, but the original Mithras was born straight from a rock as an adult wearing his clothes. Next, Adus...I can't find Adus on Wikipedia. I may have it spelled wrong. Moving on to Adonis. His mother committed incest with her father, then, fleeing him, was turned into a tree. Adonis was born from this tree. He was killed by a boar. No resurrection here. Next up, Osiris. I can't find much on his birth, but he was killed by being shut into a box which was sealed and thrown into the Nile. His wife found him, used magic to resurrect him, and had sex with him. He died after sex, and she hid his body in the dessert. She had a son, who then found his father's body and tore it apart. His wife found all the pieces, stitched them back together, and then gave him a proper burial. The gods were so impressed by her devotion that the resurrected Osiris again and made him god of the underworld. Finally, Tammuz. Wikipedia has an article about him, but it doesn't seem to detail his birth or death. It just notes that his death is widely mourned by lots of peoples.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<"When we say that Jesus Christ
was produced without sexual
union, was crucified and died,
and rose again, and ascended to
heaven, we propound nothing
new or different from what you
believe regarding those whom
you call the sons of Jupiter."
-Justin Martyr, church father>

You'd think Brian would know that if he's going to change the words in a quote, he should remove the quotation marks. I dug up the actual quote.

Saint Justin Martyr wrote:And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

What is Justin's point here? He's saying that Jesus' story isn't so unbelievable when you compare it to the pagan stories.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Rot's Giant Post: Part 5

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:39 pm

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<SOME ATTRIBUTES OF
PREVIOUS SAVIORS:

Oh, sorry, I guess Brian forgot that the term "god" and "savior" aren't interchangeable. I don't seem to recall any Greek/Roman gods or goddesses dying for the sins of their followers, especially considering the imperfections of these gods and goddesses.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:BORN OF A VIRGIN ON DECEMBER 25

This one is probably a reference to Mithras, but, as I stated, this was a retcon later on. Mithras was actually born from a rock as an adult, fully clothed.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:STARS APPEARED AT THEIR BIRTHS

VISITED BY MAGI OF THE EAST

This isn't exactly uncommon. If stars hadn't heralded a king's birth before, the Magi wouldn't have followed the stars when Jesus was born, since their alignment would have been meaningless to them.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:TURNED WATER INTO WINE

I wish Brian had bothered to give references to which "savior" did this one before Jesus.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:HEALED THE SICK

CAST OUT DEMONS

PERFORMED MIRACLES

Erm...a tad general much? Might as well through "WAS A GOD" in there, too.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:TRANSFIGURED BEFORE FOLLOWERS

RODE DONKEYS INTO THE CITY

BETRAYED FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER

Again, wish Brian had included direct references.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:CELEBRATED COMMUNAL MEAL WITH BREAD AND WINE

Ya, so did the entire Jewish population on Passover.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:WHICH REPRESENTED THE SAVIOR'S FLESH AND BLOOD

KILLED ON A CROSS OF TREE

Again, we're without references. I'd like to look into these, since the one I do know the reference for, Mithras' birthdate and circumstances, was misleading.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:DESCENDED INTO HELL

I actually don't recall the Bible saying Jesus did this. I believe this was suggested as occurring by Dante in his trilogy about Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:RESURRECTED ON THIRD DAY

Again, wishing I could see a reference here.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN

Not exactly uncommon, either.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:TO FOREVER SIT BESIDE FATHER GOD
AND FOREVER BE DIVINE JUDGE>

Again, wishing for references.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Robert M. Price: The early church fathers understood this was a problem because they were already getting the same objections from pagans. They said, "What you say about Jesus, we've been saying about, you know, Dionysus and Hercules all the time; what's the big deal?" And they didn't believe in them either anymore. And so the, uh, Christian apologists, the defenders of the faith, would say, "well, ya, but this one is true; and, you see, Satan counterfeited it in advance cause he knew this day would come."

Erm, actually, the pagans were saying that Jesus' story was unrealistic, and in response, Justin was pointing out that they believed all sorts of things about their own gods that could be considered unrealistic.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<"For when they say that
Dionysus arose again and
ascended to heavens, is it
not evident the devil has
imitated the prophecy?"
-Justin Martyr, church father>

Let's get the actual quote up there.

Saint Justin Martyr wrote:"Be well assured, then, Trypho," I continued, "that I am established in the knowledge of and faith in the Scriptures by those counterfeits which he who is called the devil is said to have performed among the Greeks; just as some were wrought by the Magi in Egypt, and others by the false prophets in Elijah's days. For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses? And when they tell that Hercules was strong, and travelled over all the world, and was begotten by Jove of Alcmene, and ascended to heaven when he died, do I not perceive that the Scripture which speaks of Christ, 'strong as a giant to run his race,' has been in like manner imitated? And when he brings forward Aesculapius as the raiser of the dead and healer of all diseases, may I not say that in this matter likewise he has imitated the prophecies about Christ? But since I have not quoted to you such Scripture as tells that Christ will do these things, I must necessarily remind you of one such: from which you can understand, how that to those destitute of a knowledge of God, I mean the Gentiles, who, 'having eyes, saw not, and having a heart, understood not,' worshipping the images of wood, Scripture prophesied that they would renounce these, and hope in this Christ."

What's that mean? It means that, way before the Greeks ever wrote about Dionysus (aka Bacchus) or anyone else, the Jews wrote about the Messiah in the Old Testament, and then the Greeks copied from the Jews attributes of Christ.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Robert M. Price: Boy, I'll tell you, that tells you two things right there: that even they didn't deny that these other Jesus-like characters were before Jesus, or they never would have resorted to something like that. Satan knew it would happen and counterfeited it in advance?

In case you're wondering, uh, yes, this remains the explanation, to this day. Fortunately for Christian leaders, they almost never have to offer it.

Again, I point out that the Old Testament prophecies detailing Christ predated the Greeks heroes that are being related to Christ.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Brian Flemming: I'm wondering if either one of you is familiar with Osiris or Mithras or Dionysus?

"I'm not."

"Hardly at all."

Brian Flemming: Let me know if you've heard of Osiris or Mithras or Dionysus.

Tino: Uh, I've heard of Dionysus. The other two I don't think I've heard of.

Brian Flemming: Do you know anything about Dionysus?

Tino: Uh, no, it sounds like an interesting Greek name, but no. Was it...was it contemporary of the, uh, Jesus or the early church?

Brian Flemming: I was wondering if you have heard any of those theories or...

Kaye: Well, you know, it's probably good that I haven't.

Rene: I've never heard of any of those gods.

Brian Flemming: If you were, um...

Rene: Haha, I've never heard of any of those pagan gods. No

Julian: No, I haven't heard about it.

Brian Flemming: Are you familiar with, um, uh, Osiris or Mithras or Dionysus?

Julian: I've heard about them, but I really haven't...really...like really gotten into, uh, making research into what it's about. I really haven't. So...but I've heard about it. It's been on the news a couple times, but I've never really paid attention to it, you know?

Brian Flemming: Is there anything that you...that you know or that you've gathered from those?

Julian: Um, I really haven't...I really haven't paid attention to it. I...just...it's all about Jesus now, and that's all you got to pay attention to, you know?

I guess Brian's point here is that we don't pay attention to mythology as much? I'm not exactly sure. He talks about theories, but I've already shown that Mithras and Osiris have very little relation to Christ. So let's talk about Dionysus. The version of the story (there are several) that Brian seems to go with is where Zeus has an affair with a goddess, Persephone (or Demeter, in some versions). Hera is upset, lures baby Dionysus with toys, Titans rip him up, and leave nothing but the heart. Zeus then recreates him in the womb of Semele using the heart. This, I guess, is technically a virgin birth and a resurrection from death, all in one, but as you can see, not exactly the same thing as Jesus'. In other versions of the story, Zeus just has plain old sex with Semele, Hera is pissed, tricks Semele into asking Zeus that she might see his full glory, which then kills her, and Zeus saves fetal Dionysus by using his own thigh as a womb.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:52 pm; edited 2 times in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Rot's Giant Post: Part 6

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:39 pm

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:For thousands of years, humanity has been obsessed with blood sacrifice. Is it an accident that the story of the crucifixion of Jesus gave Christians a suffering hero whose flesh they could eat and his blood they could drink? Of course, Christians today aren't obsessed with blood sacrifice anymore, oh, well, except that they are.

This marks the point where Brian leaves his stated thesis that Jesus never existed, and starts to go on his personal rampage against Christianity.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:For many Christians, The Passion of the Christ was the single most powerful experience of their lives. I selected these quotations and I cut them all together, but I haven't enhanced the sound effects or the visuals in any way. This stuff is all in the movie, as you see and hear it right here.

The point of The Passion of the Christ was to emphasize just how brutal Jesus' execution was, because a lot of Christians really didn't think about it. Previous movies, even old paintings, hell, even Mel Gibson’s movie, are not completely true to just how brutal the execution actually was.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:When it comes to Jesus movies, this movie is far and away the number one choice of Christians. Adjusted for inflation, the singing Jesus made fifty-five million dollars at the U.S. box office. The horny Jesus made thirteen million dollars. But the bloody Jesus? Three hundred and seventy million dollars and still counting.

Well, apologies if the rock opera placing Judas as one of the protagonists didn't do as well as The Passion of the Christ. You know what's funnier? Brian is trying to make Christians look bad by saying their obsessed with blood and violence, as if the secular world isn't. So let's check some other box office hits. Saw made one hundred two million. Saw II made one hundred forty seven million. Saw III made one hundred sixty-five million. Saw IV made one hundred thirty-nine million. Saw V made one hundred four million. So, for the Saw series, that's approximately six hundred fifty-seven million dollars. And I think we can all agree that Saw takes blood and gore to a whole new level. Hostel and its sequel totaled one hundred twenty-seven million between them. There's another difference, though. The Passion of the Christ was making a point about just how much of a sacrifice Christ made. Saw and Hostel? Just for kicks and giggles.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Wait, did you see that!? Let's go back for a second. You have to have a special effects guy with a little squirty thing just off camera to get this shot. Mel Gibson went out of his way to emphasize the blood. In fact, if you were to go through this film, minute by minute, and make a note any time that any blood, violence, or suffering were depicted on screen, it would look like this. The first ten minutes go by without much gore, but for the remaining and hundred and nine minutes, only six contain no blood, violence, or suffering. Any film represents hundreds or thousands of individual decisions made by the director. Mel Gibson could have made his Jesus movie any way that he wanted to, and he chose to make it this way. And he was right, Christians said, "Yes, this is the film we want."

That's actually not true. Mel Gibson wanted to make an accurate movie depicting the crucifixion, and so he was heavily restricted in what he could do by the canon of the Bible. If he toned it down for the PG crowd, it wouldn't have been any different than any other corny Jesus history film from before.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:James Robinson: I'm sick and tired of hearing about all of the radicals, and the propers, and the liberals, and the leftists, and the communists coming out of the closet. It's time for God's people to come out of the closet and the churches and rise up in America. We must do it.

So he's shouting...so? I don't see what the point of playing this clip was. I think Brian meant for it to reflect poorly on us "blood thirsty" Christians, but it didn't really seem all that bad. It's a guy shouting about how he doesn't like the Democrats and promoting the Christians to be more vocal. Since the Democrats tend to come in conflict with Christian principles all the time, this is hardly surprising.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Jerry Falwell: I want to raise up an army...

I love how Brian cuts off Jerry here before he can say anything else. He wants it to sound like Jerry wants to raise a physical army to take over the US or something like that. I tried to look up the quote, but couldn't find it (I didn't exactly look hard though). However, Brian should probably note that army is a common motif or analogy used in the Bible to compare the struggle between Christians and Satan. Hence the Armor of God analogy.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:<U.S. CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS
1982>

<U.S. CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS
2005
actual website
of Force Ministries>

Don't know what Brian's trying to point out, here, either. The website lists things it wants to do, but none of them necessarily connote that these must be achieved through violence. My youth group was called Frontline. We didn't go around shooting people or anything.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Brian Flemming: Let me propose something: religion does no harm at all. Discuss.

Richard Carrier: Hahahaha, well of course, well, you know, the evidence of history and even contemporary events refutes that, um...

Brian Flemming: Whatever.

Richard Carrier: Ya...ya, even...even if we set aside, you know, the obvious war, conflict, violence that has always plagued society and has gotten particularly worse under the Judeo/Christian religions, um, even if we set that aside we have ordinary everyday things that are going wrong. This sort of dehumanization and mistreatment of homosexuals, for example, is...is a prominent example, and it's getting worse in this country, actually. It was getting better, for a while, but now there's been this backlash, and it...and that...that's bad. That's bad for humanity. It's - in a religion that encourages that or even allows that, is wrong.

I agree with Richard, to a degree. The dehumanization and mistreatment of homosexuals is wrong. A common trap Christians fall into is trying to see certain sins and far worse than others. Homosexuals are sinners. But so is everyone else. Homosexuals are no better or worse than anyone else, and don't deserve particular attention. I don't think the sanctity of marriage should be disrupted to appease the homosexuals, and if the government wants to give them civil unions, I'm opposed, but only because of my faith. People that are not of faith I do not expect to oppose homosexual civil unions. I won't be particularly upset if it occurs, but I would prefer it not. However, the suggestion that religion makes everything worse is an absurd one. Humans are inherently evil, and will corrupt any institution in order to justify their own actions. Religion is no exception.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Dean Wycoff: I, uh...I agree with capital punishment, and I believe that homosexuality is one of those that could be coupled with murder and...and other sins. It would be the government that, um...that sits upon this land, who would be executing the homosexuals.

If certain fundamentalist Christians had their way, we would put gay people to death.

Hold the phone. Because one guy says it, this is now what all fundamentalist Christians think? Sweeping generalization much? I'm sure they all think it's a sin, some probably even think a punishable one, but I doubt there are many that honestly believe that we should execute homosexuals.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:And you know what, we should do that. We should strap them right to this gurney and lethally inject them.

<If a man lies with a
man as one lies with a
woman, both of them
have committed a
detestable act. They
must be put to death.
-Leviticus 18:22>

Ya, the Old Testament also says that pretty much any sin should result in execution. That's why Jesus came and made a way for us to get out from under the condemnation of the Law. Judgment is God's, not ours, and it is not our place to institute Old Testament laws for the Jews. Our current laws are in place to protect society, and I don't think homosexuals pose so great a threat to society.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:The real question is why moderate Christians don't agree with that, because when it comes to his rules, God is not a moderate.

<"Those enemies of mine
who did not want me to
be king over them -
bring them here and kill
them in front of me."
-Jesus (Luke 19:27)>

Ah, another verse pulled out of context.

Luke 19 wrote:11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.' 14But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.' 15He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. 16The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.' 17'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' 18The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.' 19His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.' 20Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you do not put in and reap what you do not sow.' 22His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I come back, I could have collected it with interest?' 24Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina and give it to the one who has ten minas.' 25'Sir,' they replied, 'he already has ten!' 26He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me.' "

So, no, I'm afraid that Jesus didn't have his public enemies executed before him where he stood as he spoke. Rather, he was giving a parable about the Great White Throne Judgment, when those who did not believe on Jesus would be cast into Hell before him. Sorry to burst Brian's bubble, not that Brian wasn't fully aware of this anyway.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Rot's Giant Post: Part 7

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:39 pm

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:"Don't you commit yourself to some political party or some politician! You commit yourself to the principles of God, and demand that those parties and politicians align themselves with the eternal values of the Lord and America will be forever the greatest nation on this Earth."

Again, I don't see the point in this. Sure, the guy is shouting, but he's shouting bipartisanship. He's saying not to vote on the line, but to vote based on your personal convictions (which, for Christians, should be aligned with God's principles).

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:You ever notice what a bad rap the Inquisition gets? Even some Christians, today, think it was a bad idea. But how could it be a bad idea? If the Bible is right, aren't the stakes as high as they can be? If a little suffering here on Earth can save more souls for all eternity, isn't that a good thing? The Inquisition was not a perversion of Christian doctrine; the Inquisition was an expression of Christian doctrine.

Um...no...not really. The Inquisition was the Holy Roman Catholic Church's way of rooting out dissention, usually by killing them. Primary targets? Protestants. That's right, other Christians. Secondary target: Jews. The Inquisition wasn't meant to win people to Christ, it was meant to keep everyone in the dark, relying on the Church for everything, because by this point, having the entire faith dependant on the Church had become quite lucrative for the Pope and Clergy. So, no, the Inquisition was not an expression of Christian doctrine, but rather, a perversion that allowed the Pope and Clergy to line their coffers more effectively.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Bailey Smith: It's interesting to me, at growing political rallies, how you have a...a Protestant to pray and a Catholic to pray, and then you have a Jew to pray. With all due respect to those dear people, my friends, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew. How in the world can God hear the prayer of a man who says Jesus Christ is not the true Messiah?

Well, this guy is a moron. While Christians believe that they pray to the same God as Jews, and that Jews' prayers don't reach God, Jews feel the same way about Christians. It's all about perspective, and one man's perspective here is clearly biased.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:You know what? He's right. Imagine if you killed your own child, like God did, and then the people you did it for didn't recognize your sacrifice. Of course you wouldn't hear their prayers!

The Jews are God's chosen people. He probably hears their prayers anyway.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Mel Gibson was right to portray the Jews as evil. These must be the most despicable people on Earth...unless this book is wrong.

Wait...what's the point of this? If I recall, Mel Gibson only portrays the Jewish council, the Pharisees, as evil. I mean, the buggers were hypocrites who used the glory of God to pad their ego and station. Hardly the most benign of rulers. But what does this have to do with the Bible being wrong?

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:And if this book is wrong, what the hell is moderate Christianity? Jesus was only sort of the Son of God? He only somewhat rose from the dead? Your eternal soul is at stake, but you shouldn't make that big a deal out of it? Moderate Christianity makes no sense. Is it any wonder the people choose the Christian leaders who actually have the courage of their convictions?

Um...I don't know if that's actually an accurate representation of moderate Christianity. The points Brian seems to claim the moderates compromise on are actually probably the main points they don't compromise on. Moderates normally tend to compromise on details and things that aren't quite clear cut.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Sam Harris: Many people imagine that, uh, belief in...in the end of days and the...the idea that Jesus is, in this generation, likely to come down, out of the clouds, and save us today...we imagine that this is not as a fringe conviction. It really isn't.

Scott Butcher: The Rapture is, uh, described in the Bible, in, uh, First Thessalonians in, uh, chapter four verses sixteen and seventeen, as being when Jesus Christ comes back to Earth and takes back His church to Heaven, and the church is all the people that are believers in him and not, uh, the building.

And so begins a series of compare contrast interviews with Scott Butcher and Sam Harris. Sam seems to know less about the actual stuff, but is more statistical. not a lot right here to look at.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Sam Harris: Twenty-two percent of Americans claim to be certain that Jesus is going to come back to Earth, judge the living and the dead, sometime in the next fifty years. Another twenty-two percent think He probably will. So that's...that's forty-four percent of the electorate who are basically convinced that He's coming back in their lifetime.

Scott Butcher: Personally, I think it's going to happen within my lifetime. Um, I'm forty-seven now and if I live a normal life, then that would be in the next twenty or thirty years.

Here, Sam displays a touch of his ignorance about the end of days. The Rapture and the Great White Throne Judgment don't take place at the exact same time. There are a lot of people that believe that the Rapture will occur in their lifetimes, after which, they will be whisked off to Heaven. Thus, the Great White Throne Judgment will not occur in their lifetimes, since they were swept off to Heaven.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Sam Harris: Now, when you unpack what that conviction entails, it is perfectly maladaptive to planning for a sustainable future for, uh, the human race. It's not...it's...it's maladaptive to, certainly, when it comes time to avoid global conflict, because by the...by the lights of these prophecies, global conflict is actually the precursor to Jesus coming back.

Scott Butcher: Hearing, uh, different, uh, Bible scholars saying that the things that are going on in the...in the world today, pretty much everything has happened, that the Bible said has to happen, uh, before the return of Jesus Christ. So, if it's all happened, we're, pretty much, uh, ready to go at any moment.

Simply because we believe the Rapture may occur soon doesn't mean we should just stop planning ahead or compromise on our principles to help the prophecies along. Besides, technically speaking, global peace is actually a precursor to the Rapture as well.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Sam Harris: It really is not an exaggeration to say that there is some significant percentage of the American electorate, which, if they turned on their television, today, and saw that a...a mushroom cloud had replaced Jerusalem, uh, they would see a silver lining, in that cloud.

No...not quite. No prophecy talking about Jerusalem getting nuked. Quite the opposite, actually. Prophecy runs that Israel will be attacked by multiple enemies, and God will roflstomp their armies, leaving Israel unharmed.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Scott Butcher: About six years ago, I...I...upon inspiration from God, I believe, I started a website called Rapture Letters dot com. The website is provided for people that have spoken with their relatives and loved ones about the Kingdom of Heaven, and, uh, haven't been able to witness to them properly, or they just weren't convinced of anything, so they can go on my website and put a name and an email address, and the people will get sent a letter after the Rapture takes place. The letter will, uh, hopefully provide some comfort for the people who receive it, and let them know that their loved ones are in Heaven now, and that, it also gives them a message and allows them to, uh, say a prayer to become, uh, saved and hopefully, uh, get into Heaven themselves.

My only question is, how does the site know to send the letters? Obviously, the site can't discern when the Rapture takes place, so it would have to be something like Scott not entering a password into the site at a steady interval. So, if he were to die suddenly in an accident or something, I must wonder if those letters would be sent out early.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Sam Harris: Insofar as the people like that elect our Presidents and Congressmen and, insofar as they get elected as President and Congressmen. It's a...it's terribly dangerous state of affairs.

What's so dangerous about Christians making up a large part of the population?

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Richard Carrier: You'll have someone make up a fake quote or misrepresent a document or misrepresent the evidence. Then they'll put it on a website or put it in a book that's published by people...what people think is a respectable publisher, and then hundreds of thousands of Christians will read this and believe it, cause they assume, "well this guy wouldn't lie; he wouldn't have made this stuff up." And so they go and repeat it, and so you get the lie repeated many times, mostly by people who aren't lying, who really think it's true, but just didn't check.

Is this a weak stab at saying the Bible isn't true, or are we talking about interpretations of the Bible, because I'm sure this happens when it comes to interpreting verses, but normally the verses are taken out of context to be used against the Bible and are normally spread by atheists or other anti-Christians.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Scott Butcher: Hundred and One Last Day Prophecies, just some of the things that are supposed to happen. Literal Babylon, formerly called Babel, would reemerge in the land of Shinar. The land of Shinar is known as modern day Iraq, and Saddam Hussein spent, uh, over twenty years rebuilding, um, literal Babylon. As a matter of fact, I heard he had Madonna come in to christen it.

I guess this is placed after Sam's piece above to try and shed doubt on the book as being one of those misinterpretations he talked about. I can't judge, but from what Scott read, literal Babylon is a real prophecy, and Saddam Hussein really did start restoring it just recently, and the new Iraqi government really is considering continuing Saddam's work.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Sam Harris: Faith really is a conversation stopper, and somebody says that it's my faith that life is sacred and, uh, God creates life and man should not meddle in it, and that really stops the conversation. There's no, you...you can't challenge someone further and treat them, uh, as though they're drawing their ethics out of the Iliad and the Odyssey, which is really what I think we should be able to do, when...when the President of the United States says, "I...I plan to appoint common sense judges, who know that our rights are derived from God." I think someone in the White House press court should be able to stand up and say, "how is that different from thinking you're going to appoint common sense judges who think our rights are...are derived from Zeus?" And that's clearly an impertinent question, but a totally reasonable question.

Erm...not really. Zeus was not an omnipotent, perfect God. He made mistakes all the time. The Bible was a key foundation for US law, so I see no problem in saying that judges should be aware of this.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Rot's Giant Post: Part 8

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:39 pm

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Scott Butcher: Unfortunately, it says in the Bible that there will be a multitude of people that go to Heaven after the Rapture, as well as the one hundred and forty-four thousand male virgin Jews. Um, the, the multitude will be wearing white robes, it's mentioned in the book of Revelation, and, uh, the number is too numerous to count, it says, but those people are also martyred. Most of them will lose their heads over their faith. So it's much better to accept Jesus as your Savior now and get taken up in the Rapture than it would be to wait till afterwards and have to lose your head over something like that.

To clarify, Scott is saying it is unfortunate that the multitude of people converted to Christianity after the Rapture will almost all be martyred.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:You know, here's the thing about Scott: I like him. He's a nice guy. He's a productive member of his community. He's a contractor with his own business. He supports his wife and kids. He's not crazy. At least, I hope he's not, because I used to believe the same things that Scott believes. Yes, I used to be a fundamentalist Christian.

Dun dun dun! And here is where Brian can no longer hide behind accidentally taking scripture out of context, or having a tone of unfamiliarity because he really was unfamiliar. Brian was a fundamentalist Christian, and he knows full well that his documentary is filled with half truths and misleading information.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:I learned the doctrine at my school, Village Christian School, in Sun Valley, California. Our school mascot was a crusader as our mission was to do battle with the secular world. But not just the secular world, we also knew that Satan worked through other versions of Christianity and we fought those too. In chapel, every Friday, we learned the only way to salvation was to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and every week, we had an opportunity to accept Jesus as our personal savior. What is salvation? Well, it's the opposite of damnation. I learned that Hell is a real place where you really do go if you have not been forgiven by Jesus Christ. When school says that each student will be encouraged to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, this is what encouragement means: be forgiven or be damned. But Jesus was a great guy. He'd forgive you for anything: lying, murder, Internet pornography, anything. He'd even forgive you for speaking against Jesus Himself.

And so the plot thickens. I'm not sure how I stand on the scare tactics employed against kids, but it is a real place, and there is a lot at stake. Just earlier, he was saying out behavior was too relaxed for how much is at stake. Now he's upset that we're going to measures he deems unfair?

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:But, apparently just to make things interesting, Jesus did add one extra rule to the mix.

<Luke 12:10
Everyone who speaks a word against
the Son of Man will be forgiven,
but anyone who blasphemes against
the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Mark 3:29
Whosoever blasphemes against the
Holy Spirit can never have forgive-
ness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.>

Let's get some context, here. We'll start with Luke.

Luke 12 wrote:1Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs. 4I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after killing the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. 8I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. 11When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."

Alright, so what does all that mean? Well, first, Jesus warns his disciples away from the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, padding station at God's expense. He declares that all will be made known in the end, that no secrets will be kept, and thus, that all sin shall be made known. He makes this clear through His analogy of the sparrows, a common bird no one cares for. Then, He moves on to say that, in Heaven, those who spoke of Him on Earth, he will own, and those who did not, He will disown. Since we're talking about Heaven, we're talking strictly about Christians here. The next bit says that he shall forgive even those that spoke against him (so Christians that speak against Christ can be forgiven, make it to Heaven, but won't be friends with Jesus). However, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. So, what is blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Simply put, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is becoming a Christian, honestly believing all of the doctrine, and then reverting to something non-Christian, and being fully convinced that Christianity is wrong. I don't think even Brian has truly blasphemed the Holy Spirit (though certainly not for lack of trying). Now, the reason this is unforgivable is because if you are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, you aren't ever going to ask for repentance. So, in actuality, blaspheming the Holy Spirit isn't some unforgivable sin, but rather, is the sin of turning one's back on Christianity to the point of open hostility, and never recommitting one's self back to Christianity. This is important to note, since this becomes Brian's key point for the rest of the video. (if you guys would like, I'll quote out Mark 3:20-30, but it is much of the same stuff, and has the same meaning)

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:There actually is one unforgivable sin: denial of the Holy Spirit. If you do that, you are eternally damned. It says so, right there in the Bible, twice. It's a doubly infallible rule. Deny the Holy Spirit, and you can never ever go anywhere but Hell.

Well, I've already explained that it isn't so much as an unforgivable sin as a sin that does not seek forgiveness. It is kind of like how suicide is supposed to be an unforgivable sin, because you can't ask forgiveness for a sin once you're dead, except that this is sort of like spiritual suicide. Technically unforgivable, but only because circumstances don't allow those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit to seek forgiveness.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:And, as luck would have it, the Holy Spirit is the easiest thing in the entire doctrine to doubt. God is out of reach, Jesus was two thousand years ago, but the Holy Spirit is with you right here, right now, so you'd better really actually feel the Holy Spirit. You can't deny it in your thoughts, because Jesus is in your thoughts. And if your mind starts to wander to the fact that there's no more evidence to the existence of this Holy Spirit than there is for the existence of unicorns, guess what you may have done. The greatest crime in fundamentalist Christianity is to think.

That's quite a leap, Brian. To clarify, no, thinking is not the unforgivable sin. Furthermore, doubting is not synonymous with denying, which in turn, is also not synonymous with blaspheming. So Brian has jumped to two conclusions, based on each other, that are clearly illogical.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:And when I was at Village Christian, I was terrified that I'd accidentally done this. Fortunately, I had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, so I could talk to him about this stuff, and in Friday chapel, I often did. I asked Jesus if He could forgive me, even if I had doubted the existence of the Holy Spirit. Of course, I had no way of knowing if He would. As you may have been able to tell, I have since stopped believing in such crazy things, but I often wonder if there are kids right now at Village Christian going through the same struggles that I did, and I also wonder how the smart, caring, obviously busy people who run Village Christian can teach children these false, terrifying ideas about how the world operates. So I headed back to Village Christian Schools to talk to the man in charge about what he teaches children and why.

This truly is a pity that Brian, as a Christian, was so caught up in his paranoia about a misinterpretation of a scripture as a child that he drove himself from Christ and very well may end up doing the one thing he feared most he had done.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Brian Flemming: What would you say is the basic Christian doctrine that is taught here to all students?

Ronald Sipus: The position that we've taken is this: that those things that we are going to be dogmatic about are those that are essential to salvation. Bottom line is this: who do you say Jesus is and what do you do with him? All the rest, we'll talk about it, and those are interesting things to talk about and it helps understand some things, but the only thing that makes any difference is: who do you say Jesus is and what do you do with him? So that's what we major on. That's what we spend time delivering. That's how, if we don't do anything else, from a spiritual point of view, we want kids to understand that they need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ and then we have to figure out how to make that happen.

And so begins the climax of the video. While Brian says it is about disproving Jesus' existence, it is really a documentary about the crimes Christianity has supposedly performed against Brian, and thus his revenge against them. And here, Brian finally gets to meet the man he blames for it all (besides God).

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Sam Harris: Our religions are...are the area in which we tolerate dogma with completely uncritically. Uh, to...to deny that the Holocaust ever happened or to assert that, uh, you know you're in dialogue with, uh, extraterrestrials is pretty much synonymous with...with craziness in our culture. Uh, and it is so, because we...we challenge people when they believe things strongly without evidence or in...or in...in contradiction to a mountain of evidence, um, uh, except on matters of faith.

Not exactly a fair analogy. Saying the Holocaust didn't happen or that you are in communication with aliens are things that you should be able to prove if they are true.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Rot's Giant Post: Part 9

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:39 pm

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Brian Flemming: In the handbook, uh, there's a statement of faith, uh, and, uh, it has seven points, and some of them are: we believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible authoritative Word of God, uh, we believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation. Now tell me, what hard, scientific evidence do you have that the world works this way?

Ronald Sipus: Well, the mistake that a lot of Christians make is trying to convince people that what they believe spiritually, um, can be proven. Now, first of all, there is a lot of historical evidence that Jesus was who He said He was. There is a lot of historical evidence that proves his resurrection, so if you want...if you're looking for historical and scientific data that proves whether Jesus was and existed and resurrected, there is evidence that...that...that will produce that, but the fact of the matter is it's...it is a faith issue.

Doctor Sipus is off to a bumpy start. He was told that they were going to discuss the education of children, so he didn't really prepare for this barrage against his faith. But he didn't do too poorly. I don't think it is fair to demand scientific data proving that the Bible is true, but Sipus does well to grasp at the historical data.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Sam Harris: You're trying to get a medical degree, and you have all kinds of ideas about human health that are...that cannot be substantiated by evidence, uh, and you talk about your own strong convictions, uh, and yet can't deduce any reasons for them. You are, you know...not only are you not getting a degree, you are just...you are essentially laughed out of the room, and there's nothing wrong with that. You know, lives depend on that being the case.

You know, there was this crazy movie called Patch that asserted just the opposite.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Ronald Sipus: Have I ever seen God? No. Have you? No. No. How do I know He's there? How do I know that what Scripture says is true? Can I prove that with empirical data that says it's true? No. It's a faith issue.

Brian Flemming: Well, have you thought, then, that maybe teaching eighteen hundred students that the world does operate this way and you don't have any evidence that it does? Have you considered that that might be the height of irresponsibility to do that?

Ronald Sipus: No, absolutely not. I think the height of irresponsibility is to ignore the reality of God and to...to ignore the reality of the person of Jesus Christ. I mean, what...

Brian Flemming: You...you're using the word "reality." You just said that there's no empirical evidence.

Ronald Sipus: Oh, there is empirical evidence...

Brian Flemming: ..."reality"...oh, now there is?

Ronald Sipus: ...there is absolute empirical evidence of...no it's not a matter of "now there is." I said a moment ago that there is absolute empirical evidence that Jesus existed. That he was real. And that he...

Brian Flemming: No, I mean about the world working...you said that it's a matter of faith that the world operates, you know, the Holy Spirit and...needs to fill you and that there's going to be a resurrection. You said all...I mean, all that stuff, you'll admit, is not scientific...

Ronald Sipus: Well, yes, that is true, that is true.

Brian Flemming: ...it's faith, and since it's faith, does your faith, I mean, what do you think about teaching a kindergarten child that the world works that way?

Ronald Sipus: I don't have any problem with that at all because we...it is a matter of saying to young people, "this is what we believe to be true, and every person ultimately has to be accountable for what they believe."

Brian Flemming: Ok, well, have you thought about maybe adding to the statement of faith, here, maybe a number eight, "um, by the way, we might be wrong, and you should investigate for yourself"?

Ronald Sipus: No, we...what...well, let me tell you, I wouldn't put that on the statement of faith, but we say to all of our kids coming through, "this is something you must believe yourself." Now, there are kids who come to our school, who do not believe Christianity, so, we're saying, "that's ok, make that statement, but now go write a position paper that proves that your position is correct."

Brian Flemming: So the burden of proof is on the student, who would say that the world operates according to scientific principles.

Ronald Sipus: Mmhmm. Mmhmm.

Brian Flemming: And the rest of the students are basically taught that they must believe that the world operates according to the supernatural.

Ronald Sipus: We're not saying that they must believe anything. We're saying that here's what the Bible says, our basis is the Bible, and a person has to decide whether they believe the Bible to be true or whether they believe the Bible to be false.

Brian Flemming: But this is...the Bible is first century and before symbolic literature, so, I mean, do you really think it's a good thing to teach children that it's literal?

Ronald Sipus: Well, literal interpretation, uh, for example, uh, God created the world in seven days. Does that mean seven twenty-four hour days or does that mean that a day is a million years or what does that mean? And there...there are all kinds of arguments that take place within the Christian community about that.

Brian Flemming: That's true. I was talking about very specific things, here. For example, it says here in the handbook, "the principle emphasis of the school is to encourage and to lead students to accept Jesus Christ...

Ronald Sipus: Can we stop? Can we stop here for a minute?

Brian Flemming: ...as their Savior, and to commit themselves to Christ as Lord of their life. I mean...

Ronald Sipus: We need to stop for a minute.

Brian Flemming: Alright, but why?

Ronald Sipus: I'd like...I want to ask you a question off the...off the camera.

Brian Flemming: Why off? I mean, I'll answer it. I'm here. I mean, you...you can ask me anything. What I...what I wanted to talk to you about was, ideas, I mean, I was taught at this school that you would be eternally damned if you denied the Holy Spirit.

Ronald Sipus: Brian, do you know what you've done? You've been dishonest in setting up this interview.

Brian Flemming: What...what...what is dishonest? I wrote you an email, and...

Ronald Sipus: Ya, and...and there's...we've been spending the last five to seven minutes trying to make you feel good about what you feel you were punished at here. Not what you told me we were going to talk about.

Brian Flemming: I told you we were going to talk about the education of children. I'm here to talk about the education of...oh now you're ending the interview? Wh-why are you ending the interview? Alright.

The interview with Sipus is hard to follow. Brian can hardly contain his bitter sarcasm, and in places, purposely misinterprets what Sipus says, forcing him to rephrase things. However, I don't know how wise it was to stop the interview when Sipus did. While Brian had Sipus on the defensive, Brian was losing himself and likely would have made critical errors in his arguments, so blinded by his anger. However, I feel that Sipus' accusation towards Brian is correct. Brian is just trying to make himself feel good about this punishment he feels the Christian church, particularly this school, put on him.

The God Who Wasn't There wrote:Doctor Sipus wouldn't talk to me on camera anymore, so there wasn't much reason to stay, but, then, as I was leaving, I noticed the chapel was open. This is the chapel where I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. I sat right here, on this bench once and did that. Also sat over here and did it again because I had backslid. And then at a later grade I sat back there and did it yet again. I was born again at least three times, I think. I got to hold up the camera myself. Here, in this chapel, where I first accepted Jesus as my personal savior, I just want to say one thing: I deny the Holy Spirit.

As I said, it truly is a pity that Brian was so consumed by paranoia about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, something he, to this day, likely does not understand, that it drove him to leave the church, and will likely drive him to one day die without Christ, thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit. However, I think it is pretty clear that Brian's arguments are pretty much void, as far as the existence of Christ goes. His arguments are so full of holes I could pass bowling balls through them. There's hardly any real argument made. He makes a few compelling points the Holy Roman Catholic Church, but really not much else.


Last edited by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by RX on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:41 pm

Holy hell... This will be an über quote...
RX
RX
Minion

Male Number of posts : 1957
Age : 25
Location : Ancient Kingdom of Norwegia
Registration date : 2008-12-12

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Maginot Line on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:42 pm

So... it begins.
Maginot Line
Maginot Line
Minion

Male Number of posts : 142
Location : If I tell you, promise you won't run?
Registration date : 2008-07-18

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:45 pm

*In Guardsmen's voice*
TAKE COVER!!!!
Kasrkin Seath
Kasrkin Seath
The Law

Male Number of posts : 3018
Location : Michigan
Registration date : 2008-07-12

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Maginot Line on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:52 pm

Erm... Rot, there was a cult who believed Jesus was coming back, and that he was behind Haley's comet... I believe (though I may be off on this a little) that the males were castrated, and on the night Jesus was supposed to be coming, they all commited suicide.

I would quote where it says this in your post, but that special optical gear doesn't work as well as it was supposed to... my brain was melting and my eyes started to bleed when I went in to try and find it...

Anyways, I don't know the exact name of this cult, but it was discussed in a class at school last year. I can probably find out the name though...
Maginot Line
Maginot Line
Minion

Male Number of posts : 142
Location : If I tell you, promise you won't run?
Registration date : 2008-07-18

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:58 pm

So is that the reference to the 89 crispy fans? Anyway, believing that Jesus is coming and committing suicide are too separate thing. The Bible doesn't say to kill one's self prior to the Rapture. Trust me, I'm not defending all self-proclaimed Christians, just the ones that actually try to stick to the Bible.

_________________
The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Rot_cube_Signature-1
Rotaretilbo
Rotaretilbo
Magnificent Bastard

Male Number of posts : 4540
Age : 29
Location : Arizona
Registration date : 2008-07-21

http://cdpgames.com

Back to top Go down

The God Who Wasn't There - Page 3 Empty Re: The God Who Wasn't There

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 5 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum