[poll] Do you Think Former President Bush was a Bad President?

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Total Votes : 33

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Post by Zaki90 on Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:17 pm

BBJynne wrote:so your strategy is basically allowing them to organize a counter-attack?

But how can they have a counter-attack without resources. Japan doesn't have that many resources. It is dependent on imported raw materials to manufacture into goods.

Thus, having an blockade would prevent the Japanese from strengthening their economy making them unable to produce weapons and vehicles for military purposes. Also, the Japanese people will the angry at the government for causing this blockade which destroyed many jobs.

It doesn't mean death. And the government will have to give in after a certain period of time.

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:32 pm

The Japanese people viewed the emperor as a god. And do you realize how many casualties we'd incur if we tried to blockade Japan from the Chinese mainland? Tiny strip of land, Japanese forces on both sides. Remember, the Japanese will do anything to sink our ships, including ramming them with planes filled with TNT. A naval blockade was completely out of the question. A naval blockade would only breed resentment. The Japanese could not be so simply broken. I remind you again that it took two nukes, the threat of Russia invading, and then us flying all sorts of planes over Tokyo before they finally surrendered. If there was something other than the nuclear option that would result in surrender without higher casualties than the nuclear option, then why did it take two nukes to finally get them to surrender?

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Post by Felix on Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:48 pm

Because those Japs are crazy son of a bitches...

anyway, do you really think that their first choice was to bomb, ney, nuke them? No, they wanted to end the war as quickly and with as few casulities as possible. They tried to negociate, that failed, they tried to reason, that failed, all other options pretty much failed. All that was left was to nuke them, and that still wasn't enough... It took two, two, and I will say again, two nukes before the Japanesse surrendered.

It was a price the Japanesse paid, and it saved the lives of thousands of troops in the process.

anyway, I think this thread was throw way off topic
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Post by Zaki90 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:37 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:The Japanese people viewed the emperor as a god. And do you realize how many casualties we'd incur if we tried to blockade Japan from the Chinese mainland? Tiny strip of land, Japanese forces on both sides. Remember, the Japanese will do anything to sink our ships, including ramming them with planes filled with TNT. A naval blockade was completely out of the question. A naval blockade would only breed resentment. The Japanese could not be so simply broken. I remind you again that it took two nukes, the threat of Russia invading, and then us flying all sorts of planes over Tokyo before they finally surrendered. If there was something other than the nuclear option that would result in surrender without higher casualties than the nuclear option, then why did it take two nukes to finally get them to surrender?

Yah the Jap Army back then was insane, but maybe their people weren't. The nuke hurt the country and everything inside.

A blockade would be difficult. But it won't take more than 210,000 lives. Naval blockade?!?! I meant a economic blockade. The Japs would have no place to run for money. They may have fish and rice. But what help is that going to be.

Blocking all the land around them. Water isn't going to help them obtain the resources they require to do any significant damage. Slowly and slowly, the country men will become bitter because of the lack of jobs and money. The country men will see the Emporer as part of the problem being the idea that he will not accept a surrender. Riots will emerge in Japan. And soon enough the government will be overthrown or Hirohito will be forced to accept the surrender.

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Post by CivBase on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:44 pm

Thousands more would die than the nukes before Japan admired they needed our economic help and surrendered, plus they would continue fighting until then. They could have possibly even promised more rations to those who joined the military, increasing their number of fighters and bringing the death toll that much higher for each side.

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Post by Zaki90 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:47 pm

Felix wrote:Because those Japs are crazy son of a bitches...

anyway, do you really think that their first choice was to bomb, ney, nuke them? No, they wanted to end the war as quickly and with as few casualties as possible. They tried to negociate, that failed, they tried to reason, that failed, all other options pretty much failed. All that was left was to nuke them, and that still wasn't enough... It took two, two, and I will say again, two nukes before the Japanesse surrendered.

It was a price the Japanesse paid, and it saved the lives of thousands of troops in the process.

anyway, I think this thread was throw way off topic

It was not. But it seemed like the only logical answer to the Allies. Sure, doesn't everyone want to end war quickly and with the least possible amount of casualties.They negotiated an unconditional surrender and Japan said no.

What were the other options?
Invade Japan?

See Japan was scared of Russia more than a nuke.

The second nuke said nothing. The Russians about to blow them to shit... They make a deal.

But the way America turned to a nuke. I would have never even considered a nuke.

There were many other options in it. Many...
America just turned to a nuke.

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Post by Zaki90 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:52 pm

CivBase wrote:Thousands more would die than the nukes before Japan admired they needed our economic help and surrendered, plus they would continue fighting until then. They could have possibly even promised more rations to those who joined the military, increasing their number of fighters and bringing the death toll that much higher for each side.

More than 210,000?

By the way. How can you increase the rations of one without having to decrease the rations of another.
And the equipment used for each soldier would be expensive too.

There not going charge naked with stones and sticks in wooden rafts against the world which have hundreds of thousands of troops with heavy defenses.

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Post by CivBase on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:53 pm

zaki90 wrote:It was not. But it seemed like the only logical answer to the Allies. Sure, doesn't everyone want to end war quickly and with the least possible amount of casualties.They negotiated an unconditional surrender and Japan said no.

What were the other options?
Invade Japan?

See Japan was scared of Russia more than a nuke.

The second nuke said nothing. The Russians about to blow them to shit... They make a deal.

But the way America turned to a nuke. I would have never even considered a nuke.

There were many other options in it. Many...
America just turned to a nuke.
Sure, the fact that they just lost two of their major cities with no enemy death had absolutely no influence. It was all because of the Russians, who are mostly in the west, were poised to send in what was left of their army across the water on a suicide mission to take the beaches of Japan. That's it, how stupid of us not to see that.

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Post by CivBase on Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:56 pm

Zaki90 wrote:More than 210,000?
Quite possibly.

Zaki90 wrote:By the way. How can you increase the rations of one without having to decrease the rations of another.
And the equipment used for each soldier would be expensive too.
It would be a ploy. But remember, more soldiers = stronger army. Stronger army = easier to get land. More land = more resources and thus more food.
Money is no object during war. All you need is the materials to build. Japan wasn't exactly Capitalistic.

Zaki90 wrote:There not going charge naked with stones and sticks in wooden rafts against the world which have hundreds of thousands of troops with heavy defenses.
BANZAI!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:12 pm

If we blockaded them, they wouldn't become disgruntled, they would do what alot of Americans are doing right now: Joining the Military.

With no work, threats to the nation and an order from your god-emperor to kill all other races, they would simply have a larger army.

Face it. Using the nukes were logical. Any other course of action(that would have worked) would ahv eresulted in more deaths.
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Post by Zaki90 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:05 pm

Kasrkin Seath wrote:If we blockaded them, they wouldn't become disgruntled, they would do what alot of Americans are doing right now: Joining the Military.

With no work, threats to the nation and an order from your god-emperor to kill all other races, they would simply have a larger army.

Explained below

Face it. Using the nukes were logical. Any other course of action(that would have worked) would ahv eresulted in more deaths.

A larger army without equipment. It is like fighting apes. As soon as you pull out the knife, you won.
CivBase wrote:
It would be a ploy. But remember, more soldiers = stronger army. Stronger army = easier to get land. More land = more resources and thus more food.
Money is no object during war. All you need is the materials to build. Japan wasn't exactly Capitalistic.

Both money and resources are extremely important in war. Especially nowadays.

If you have the materials, but no money. You cannot get workers to use the materials to create items to be used for military purposes.

If you are without materials, but with money. You cannot get the items needed for the workers to work on that will create the items which will be used for military purposes.

There is something called upkeep. For every soldier you have, the equipment he uses will cost money. So if you have 7 million troops, you have to have 7 million bullet proof vests, 7 million guns, 7 millions grenades, 7 million REM
(Ready to Eat Meal) daily, 7 hundred million bullets, 7 million tents, etc...

The price really adds up. And Japan, having been already spending a ton into war. Stuck on Japan without raw materials. Manufacturing jobs will be lost, the people will be angry. The people aren't going to join the army. The army is in the same shape as they are in.

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Post by kslidz on Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:32 pm

or just like terrorist nows get a bomb strap it on and run in

bombs are easy to make
get fertalizer

and the government of japan wouldnt take the entire cost of war it would take from its people

and you are just adding to the point of thousands of Americans would have died daily in that campaign

you act like we could just surround japan
they had ships too and could sink our ships losing more men

yeah eventually they would have given up but not after months of probably millions of men on both sides and their civilians dyeing


your logic is circular and not fully thought out

EDIT: a man with a knife vs an ape
im betting on the ape personally

not a good analogy to use

and even if you said 50000 men with knives vs 70000 men with out both teams would sorely lose men now if you said a guy in a chopper vs 70000 men ill go with chopper

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:28 pm

Zaki, you act like if we blockaded them, their military resources would instantly hit zero. The Japanese weren't making the firearms and then immediately issuing them out. They had firearms in reserve. They had planes in reserve. They had tanks in reserve. They had ships in reserve. In order for a blockade to be effective, it would take months, no, years before Japan ran out of military equipment capable of combating our ships. And even then, they'd still have food and ground forces enough to hunker down and wait for an invasion. So, yes, it would be more than two hundred thousand. It would probably be more like two hundred million, because eventually we'd be forced to invade. Japan would not surrender if we simply blocked them into their island. Period.

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Post by kslidz on Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:33 am

(adding onto rots)
in fact the japanese secluded themselves on purpose from the rest of the world they didnt care if they were shut off they would however keep attacking

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Post by CivBase on Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:18 pm

Zaki90 wrote:
CivBase wrote:
It would be a ploy. But remember, more soldiers = stronger army. Stronger army = easier to get land. More land = more resources and thus more food.
Money is no object during war. All you need is the materials to build. Japan wasn't exactly Capitalistic.

Both money and resources are extremely important in war. Especially nowadays.

If you have the materials, but no money. You cannot get workers to use the materials to create items to be used for military purposes.

If you are without materials, but with money. You cannot get the items needed for the workers to work on that will create the items which will be used for military purposes.

There is something called upkeep. For every soldier you have, the equipment he uses will cost money. So if you have 7 million troops, you have to have 7 million bullet proof vests, 7 million guns, 7 millions grenades, 7 million REM
(Ready to Eat Meal) daily, 7 hundred million bullets, 7 million tents, etc...

The price really adds up. And Japan, having been already spending a ton into war. Stuck on Japan without raw materials. Manufacturing jobs will be lost, the people will be angry. The people aren't going to join the army. The army is in the same shape as they are in.
But there is a substitute for money that is commonly used in war known to most as propaganda. Plus, I don't think you fully understand what I meant when I said that Japan was not capitalistic.

So if you have 7 million troops, you have to have 7 million bullet proof vests
Not necessarily

7 million guns, 7 hundred million bullets
No, you don't. Russia worked fine with two soliders sharing one gun, one clip per gun

7 millions grenades
Grenades? You must assume this is a mighty small-scale war if you think everyone gets their own grenade when you're under blockade and are making a last-stand.

7 million REM (Ready to Eat Meal) daily
I'll give you that one

7 million tents, etc...
Each person gets their own tent? In Japan? WW2? You're kidding.

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Post by Angatar on Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:31 pm

Zaki has no idea what a war is apparently. I suppose you think everyone got their own tank, plane, and bunker. :/
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Post by Zaki90 on Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:19 pm

Angatar wrote:Zaki has no idea what a war is apparently. I suppose you think everyone got their own tank, plane, and bunker. :/
I never said everyone got their own tank,plane, and bunker.
I said the items standard for war since 1942.

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Post by Rotaretilbo on Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:29 pm

But, again, as I pointed out, it wasn't like the materials they used each day were produced the day before. So, using your example, Japan probably had twenty-one million guns, seven billion bullets, seven hundred million grenades, seven trillion MRE stored and more being produced (we already discussed that Japan can produce its own food), and seven million tents. Furthermore, Japan achieved its army mostly on its own, before setting out to expand. That is to say, Japan has a small amount of resources with which to supplement their army in the event that they ran out of supplies. But, during a naval blockade, they wouldn't be using those guns, bullets, or grenades, so they wouldn't be running out, now would they?

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Post by Zaki90 on Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:01 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:But, again, as I pointed out, it wasn't like the materials they used each day were produced the day before. So, using your example, Japan probably had twenty-one million guns, seven billion bullets, seven hundred million grenades, seven trillion MRE stored and more being produced (we already discussed that Japan can produce its own food), and seven million tents. Furthermore, Japan achieved its army mostly on its own, before setting out to expand. That is to say, Japan has a small amount of resources with which to supplement their army in the event that they ran out of supplies. But, during a naval blockade, they wouldn't be using those guns, bullets, or grenades, so they wouldn't be running out, now would they?

It depends. We both have no idea how many resources that Japan had during the end of the war. A big part of Japan's economy is manufacturing raw materials from other countries.

The food still cost money. Money for the workers in the field.

It would be a economic and naval blockade. I know that they had a lot of their troops already in use. But gradually the country will start to break.

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Post by CivBase on Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:13 pm

Gradually... after thousands of deaths...

If we blockade them, they will attack. More attacks = more deaths. More failed attacks = less mouths for Japan to feed and more hatred towards the outside world. More hatred = more people joining the military. Which, inevitably, leads to more deaths. Ect.

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Post by PiEdude on Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:16 pm

Zaki90 wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:But, again, as I pointed out, it wasn't like the materials they used each day were produced the day before. So, using your example, Japan probably had twenty-one million guns, seven billion bullets, seven hundred million grenades, seven trillion MRE stored and more being produced (we already discussed that Japan can produce its own food), and seven million tents. Furthermore, Japan achieved its army mostly on its own, before setting out to expand. That is to say, Japan has a small amount of resources with which to supplement their army in the event that they ran out of supplies. But, during a naval blockade, they wouldn't be using those guns, bullets, or grenades, so they wouldn't be running out, now would they?

It depends. We both have no idea how many resources that Japan had during the end of the war. A big part of Japan's economy is manufacturing raw materials from other countries.

The food still cost money. Money for the workers in the field.

It would be a economic and naval blockade. I know that they had a lot of their troops already in use. But gradually the country will start to break.

The Japanese were complete fanatics.
They saw their emperor as a living god. They would have worked for free.
Maybe not without food, but definitely for no pay.
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Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:39 pm

Exactly. They'd probably leave the attacking to suicide flyers, but they'd hunker down and wait for the invasion.

As an alternative to invasion, you could have firebombed the cities... which we did... and you would have killed more people than the nuking.

Blockade? Give me a break. The US was in DEBT, and only a certain picture taken at Iwo Jima prevented us from giving the Japanese whatever they wanted. We had neither the time, patience, nor capital to mount an extensive blockade.
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Post by Zaki90 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:05 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Exactly. They'd probably leave the attacking to suicide flyers, but they'd hunker down and wait for the invasion.

As an alternative to invasion, you could have firebombed the cities... which we did... and you would have killed more people than the nuking.

Blockade? Give me a break. The US was in DEBT, and only a certain picture taken at Iwo Jima prevented us from giving the Japanese whatever they wanted. We had neither the time, patience, nor capital to mount an extensive blockade.

Actually, because of WW2. The economy in the US rose. Finding enough Uranium 235 for 2 nuclear bombs is expensive. America had money. And don't forget the Commonwealth and Russia!

How can they fly without an airplane?

but I wouldn't. Also, an economic blockade. Making it treason to give Japan resources.

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Post by Kasrkin Seath on Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:09 pm

We didn't have the resources to hav ea long term blockade.
You also fail to uderstand that millions would likely die before teh japanese would give in.

The Nukes did what they were supposed to do.
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Post by Zaki90 on Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:21 pm

Millions? Are you joking?!?!

There weren't that many Allied soliders out there!

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